Strongest Characters/Teams and Why

[gameplan.exe]

So, it's funny this topic was mentioned and I never came back to it. A few months ago, my brother and I started breaking down all of the things that make a character good, or terrible.
It came down to 2 catagories:
Power Grid
Special Cards

In the first, the Power Grid affects Sum Deck Total, so there's the element of a character's cost. It also affects their Power Card pool, so the max-8 is obviously more valuable than the max-6. Then there is value in the dual-grids (people with 6+ ratings in 2+ catagories), because they fit into various decks better. Those last 2 elements (overal max stat, and dual grid-ness) combine to also give the value of available Teamwork cards for a character. This is the summation of a person's Power Grid values.

In the second, the Special cards create, obviously, vast variation in decks. We singled out just a few of the elements of Special cards breaking them out into 3 basic catagories. Attack, Defend, and Card Advantage.
Attacks were easy to quantify, obviously. We created an adjusted average for them.
Next was the Card Advantage, which we really limited to cards that affect the current battle. So, Mr.Sinister's "Keep Duplicates" is super useful, but you can't Venture up when you draw it, since it affects next battle. This was a little tougher to quantify, but we eventually found a relative rating system for these types of cards, ranging from the best (HQ) and the worst (FB) and all of them in between.
Defense was also difficult to quantify (without extensive data processing), but we simplified the usefulness of teammate-type avoids (AO, AD, DB, etc). We again created a sort of curve-rating system.

After putting all of this together (and recognizing that there is quite a bit of subjectivity involved) we arrived with a comprehensive list, ranking all of the Overpower characters (4-stat cards only). We included different rakings for Alternate cards, too, since their varying grid can change their relative value (with a few exceptions, but we kept them listed for uniformity).

Some of the rankings really surprised us, but the data really is there to back these people up (we did include The Marvels, by the way). Here's top and bottom ten:

1. Professor X
2. Marauders
3. Mojo
4. Mr. Fantastic
5. Nightcrawler
6. Ghost Rider
7. Hulk
8. Morlocks
9. Holocaust
10. X-man
...
...
253. Forge
254. Taskmaster
255. Maggot
256. Ripclaw
257/258. Comm. Gordon & GCPD (same as Comm. James Gordon)
259. Thorn
260. Doctor Polaris
261. Warlock
262. Psycho-Man
263. Deathlock

[CoS]

i agree that professor X is one of the top Heroes with 4 stats but you don't include Scarlet Witch in top 10 (yet include ghost rider & mojo both Max-6) heroes? I would have to put more weight in the averages to the ability to use a 7 power card over the specials (although both mojo and ghost rider have great ones).... how many tournament decks used Ghost Rider? If he were truly a top 10 hero he would at least seen some play in the top 16 tables but none of the deck lists I have come across include him (some include Mojo).  Just my two cents. I think that Scarlet Witch should be one of the top 5 heroes all things considered (her inherent is incredible).

[BigBadHarve]

I agree, it's an odd list, a few things don't seem to add up.

For example, Nightwing is not on your bottom ten. He is arguably the most shafted character in OP.

Ghost Rider is an interesting anomaly. He rarely gets used (well, I use him regularly, but I too am an anomaly!) but he doesn't have a single useless card. Add his draw 3 from the Marvels and you have a truly stacked character that fits into any deck but and intellect deck.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

This list is far from perfect. Our rankings are really for an individual evaluation. A person being used a lot doesn't make them the best. X-Babies are a great example of that, and I think Scarlet Witch is another.

Also, Ghost Rider drops out of the top 10 without the HQ he gets from The Marvels.

As for Nightwing, we can all agree he got hosed for who he is, because he shouldn't be so... useless. But, in terms of game play, can you really argue that he's worse than those bottom 10? I can't.
Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 03:55:56 PM
Also, keep in mind that being rated as one of the strongest characters isn't all there is to getting the most of a character. I mean, there's a lot more strategy to deck building than finding strong individuals.
For example, ProfX, Marauders, Mojo, and Mr.F are the highest rated (on our list), sum-legal team you can make, but that team would be a tough sell.

[drdeath25]

No Spawn or H4H? I also agree Scarlet Witch not being in top 10 is crazy... An interesting list though.

[gameplan.exe]

Spawn was #13
H4H was #21

[drdeath25]

Where was Beast: The Brute? Seems like using your formula he should be in the top 10.

I still have to agree, this is very interesting stuff.

[BigBadHarve]

As for Nightwing, we can all agree he got hosed for who he is, because he shouldn't be so... useless. But, in terms of game play, can you really argue that he's worse than those bottom 10? I can't.

Oh yes I can. Each of your Bottom ten has redeeming cards or a redeeming grid going for them. Nightwing does not.

Forge - No great defining cards, but a series of cards that are usable, plus a 7 on his grid.
Taskmaster - Admittedly not too much - but he has a truly solid OPD, and his non-OPD 4s aren't terrible.
Maggot - Again, not much, but what he does have hits hard.
Ripclaw - Good grid, and His Pacifist Heart card makes him extremely playable. Concede and fully heal any character? Definitely a plus.
Comm. Gordon & GCPD (same as Comm. James Gordon) - Solid cards all around. Good OPDs, as well the Holohero has a good inherent ability.
Thorn - Weak, yes, but she has two OPDs that aren't bad.
Doctor Polaris - Again, Not fantastic, but not unusable.
Warlock - No cards - but decent grid and can manage 4 TWs.
Psycho-Man - Underrated. His 'Hate' card is sweet - lock down opponent's cards with the word teammate is useful.
Deathlock - JW cards, and a good card from the marvels to cancel opponents inherent's.

ALL of those are reasons to use any of those characters over Nightwing, who hasn't got much. Now, give him an inherent ability like - "May play Robin Specials, may play any Batman non-OPD specials" and suddenly Nightwing is a little more viable.    (Which is the inherent we gave him, BTW.) 

My two cents on the Nightwing debate.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

I'm not going to get into an argument about whether or not Nightwing (34th worst, btw) is worse than Deathlock. We both agree that he shouldn't be in the bottom HALF, let alone the bottom 15%, or bottom 10.

Ultimately, I'm going to have to post our formula for quantifying all of this. Maybe I can even get some feedback on some of the more subjective data (like the relative value of Card Advantage type cards, Defensive cards, etc.). That'll be a long post, but maybe I can start by posting some polls. I'll kick it around when I have more time (maybe this weekend).
Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 03:56:10 PM

Where was Beast: The Brute? Seems like using your formula he should be in the top 10.

I still have to agree, this is very interesting stuff.

Beast: The Brute was #40

Keep in mind there was some pretty minimal separation between some of the groupings. I mean to say that the top 5 or so, are pretty clear, then the next 10-15, then the next 20 are all super-close, etc.

[a_noble_kaz]

Also keep in mind that this tier list leans toward hypothetical. Traditionally a tier list (as in a fighting game like Tekken) is made based on the number of appearances in a given tournament. This could be somewhat different from what one might think would be true, and Scarlet Witch is an excellent example of that. This tier list is assuming a number of things are true, but more importantly it is not a deck construction guide but rather an attempted overview of a characters worth. So while Scarlet Witch might not rank high on this list, that doesn't mean she isn't an excellent character that saw plenty of use because of a number of factors (cheap cost, max-7, AI, AO, AQ). Instead this list is a ranking on a much more singular basis; if you could only choose one character for your team, whom would you choose? Scarlet Witch most certainly would not be my first choice (it would actually be Cyclops, but hey, I'm a fan, so... yeah).

Let me try to clarify what I mean with an example.

In Tekken 5 some players attempted to compile a tier list of the 35 fighters based solely upon the raw data. In a fighting game it would be the "frame data": frame data being the number of frames (60 frames of animation in 1 second of game time) it takes to execute, land, and recover from any given move in the game.

The fighter Marshall Law was given a mid-mid tier status because the number of frames in his best moves exceeded the time it would take to recover from them being blocked. In other words, based on the data, it is too easy to block an attack from Law and attack him back.

However, a little bit later in the Korean tourney circuit, Marshall Law saw a lot of use. So much so that he was actually ranked high-mid (actually like number 5 or something, just below the "God Tier"). The reason being he had plenty of moves that were good, and more importantly, plenty of people knew best how to take advantage of his moveset to give them the edge.

So in our "tier list", we look at all the data we deem important (cost, dual-grid, number of playable teamworks, offensive output, card manipulation, avoids (negates, teammate, self or teammate, etc.) etc.) and put to a curve of sorts and compiled a list of characters based on a point average.

So this list is not necessarily definitive, and by no means a "true" tier list (we don't play, nor have we played in tournaments), but rather a fun way to gauge how ostensibly "good" a character is.

[gameplan.exe]

-Kaz mentions a good point. The list was individually rated, but it's still a team game.

Like football, everyone has a role. The best Kick Returner in the NFL might be listed as a Wide Receiver, but that doesn't make him the best WR. Even though he can get a job with every NFL team, he's still not going to get paid like a top WR, even though he technically is one.

For Scarlet Witch, she might be the best there is to fill her role (Negator), but she's still filling her role. She's not going to be able to carry a team of characters. You wouldn't exactly build a team around her. If we were holding an Overpower Draft, she would be a second round pick. A very good second rounder, but still not the top pick for most people (I think).

[CoS]

the only hero i would draft over her would be an 8 stat hero if we doing a true "draft" of OP heroes. Because as I said in the "rankings" thread, an 8 stat is better than the specials ;-)

[BigBadHarve]

Ultimately it depends on the team as a whole. I don't mind foregoing an 8 character on my team for a lesser grid, but complementary specials.

As you say, everyone fills a role. If there's not necessarily a role for an 8 character over someone who has a utility role for their specific cards, then that's the route to go. The opposite is true too. I have a few decks that I use that are grid based, and deliberately light on the specials. In which case, yes, grid is of utmost importance because Teamworks are a heavy factor for the team.

That's what's great about this game - the versatility of design.

Dammit, all this OP talk makes me want to play. But for whatever reason, my OP online isn't connecting any more.

-BBH

[steve2275]

where does  colossus rank on this list?

[gameplan.exe]

where does  colossus rank on this list?

he was at 57. Our quantification of defensive cards needs serious work though. I realized that about 4 months ago, but haven't really made any progress toward that end, yet.