Peace Bridge 2015 Tournaments in Buffalo, May 15-16.

[MHC]

but make DOW immune to KL cards like cpt Britain's battleworthy, or little iceman.

Why would you want to make it harder for decks to remove DoW?  Is there a reason why you think it is bad that decks can get rid of DoW without using 4 activators?

[mr brown]

my thought is if DoW is the largest playing card in value and effect that watering it down too much would devalue the card. the 4 activator chain is a great idea. but if the activators were allowed to be played defensively it would tilt scale too far to one side. never liked that little ice man could remove Galactus  eating a planet.

[BigBadHarve]

I think playing your activators defensively in response to DoW being played is a step too far. As is making it immune to KL cards.

Simplicity is the key here, we want to avoid writing a whole set of rules and counter-rules to govern a single card. That's what happened with the game as it progressed, which made it unwieldy. A single adjustment is worth testing.

What we really need is everyone to play with that rule, and report back what you've found. Some of us tried it briefly a few years ago, and it seemed to work well enough from what we saw... but the sampling was definitely on the low side.

[Skeletaur]

I think playing your activators defensively in response to DoW being played is a step too far. As is making it immune to KL cards.

Simplicity is the key here, we want to avoid writing a whole set of rules and counter-rules to govern a single card. That's what happened with the game as it progressed, which made it unwieldy. A single adjustment is worth testing.

What we really need is everyone to play with that rule, and report back what you've found. Some of us tried it briefly a few years ago, and it seemed to work well enough from what we saw... but the sampling was definitely on the low side.

I just feel that the way people are saying at the tourney that DoW made Battlesites unusable implies a significant change would need to be done to bring it in line. Allowing you to chain activators doesn't help you in card advantage or the fact that you lose 4 of your activators. If you end up drawing only 1 activator a turn, there would be no change to how DoW currently works.

Just some thoughts from a guy that doesn't mind DoW that much actually..

Edit:

I guess the 3 main negatives to DoW are:

1- Losing card advantage between 1 and 4 turns
2- Losing 4 specials from the activators
3- Losing 4 turns to attack

Which are the ones that are causing the biggest headache?

[MHC]

I guess the 3 main negatives to DoW are:

1- Losing card advantage between 1 and 4 turns
2- Losing 4 specials from the activators
3- Losing 4 turns to attack

Which are the ones that are causing the biggest headache?

My opinion: The loss of 4 turns is the biggest headache.  Drawing one activator for four battles really isn't that bad.  You can treat such a hand as a hand of seven (analogous to drawing one duplicate) and just treat DoW as a discard one card (for four battles).  The really killer is that if you want to get rid of DoW you have to waste one attack for four battles to get rid of it.  So now DoW acts as a discard 1 and a skip one attack.  Such an effect is  pretty strong.   Furthermore, DoW gets stronger the more activators you have.  If you are on the other side of the spectrum where you have four activators in hand, then DoW acts as a discard four (i.e., power leech) and as a skip your next four attacks.  As a power leech-like effect, DoW is already very strong.  Forcing your opponent to skip multiple turns makes it too strong in my opinion (in fact, there does not exist any card in Overpower that has this kind of team-level effect). 

I've done some testing with allowing chains of activators.  That didn't completely solve the problem of skipping attacks (particularly for the case where you draw one activator for four battles), but it did make it more fair (which is not very fair given DoW acts like a power leech that cannot be negated). 

I have also tried the variant where DoW acts as an immediate discard for all activators and then "triggers" just after venturing each battle until the opponent has discarded 4 activators cards.  The advantage of this was that your opponent never lost a turn, they just got mini-power leeched each battle until they discarded 4 total cards.  This does change the functionality of the card a bit, but I found it to be much more fair than any alternative where the opponent lost turns.  (Note that I initially tried having the "trigger" occur before venturing.  However, that ended up being too strong as well since it gave the player who played DoW a lot of information about their opponent's hand, and allowed them to venture really big after playing DoW.  )

[BigBadHarve]

Here's the main thing to consider with DoW - while on paper it seems like you're only losing 4 activators, you are in practicality losing far more.

Most people don't immediately start working it down. Say I'm hit while holding two activators. But if I have no other defense, I'm likely going to concede rather than lose my team to your unfettered attacks. So that's two activators lost.

Next battle, say I draw 2 activators, but the rest of my hand isn't terrible. I start hitting DoW while fending off your assault. 2 on DoW now, but 4 activators lost now.

Next battle I draw 1. I hit DoW. 3 on DoW, 5 activators lost.

Next battle I draw 3. Opponent concedes before battle. While a victory, with DoW in play I can't necessarily risk a high venture to catch up and keep my opponent in the battle to finish the job. That's now essentially 8 activators lost now to DoW, and it's STILL in play.

This is all a hypothetical situation, of course, but one that is entirely possible, and familiar to anyone who's been DoW'd. And we're just talking activator loss here, not all other factors involved - Opponent's ability to venture more aggressively, loss of characters due to lack of defense, inability to properly attack due to reduced cards.

That's the reality of why it's an unbalanced card. This multiple activator dump rule will keep the true activator loss down to about 4, which is not as devastating - though still VERY strong.

I have often sat on the side of defending the DoW, because there are some limitations.... but at this point I've seen too many games simply ended because DoW came out and was the primary reason for victory. And being on the receiving end is simply not fun. It sucks too much of the enjoyment out of the game.

[OP GOD]

How about just extending the text. "Dow may not be negate - by an activator."  Thus not allowing you battle site access, but allowing a kl or ao get rid of it.

M

[steve2275]

D o W is fine as is
i deal with it
maybe you guys should too
and that what i think
carry on

[poneill378]

I know some people are concerned with making rule or card text changes, so how about keeping it simple and making 1 or 2 new Homebase cards to go along with "Toronto".

"State College" IA: State College's team may attack DOW with multiple Activators per turn.

or maybe

"Buffalo" IA: Buffalo's team may keep duplicate Activators if DOW is in play during the discard phase.

Something like that wouldn't necessitate a rule change or text change. And it can be the tournament director's decision as to whether they are legal, as with Marvels and the Toronto cards.

The Battlesite team would also lose the +1 venture from Marvel Universe, which also adds to the balance a bit. 

[Jack]

Toronto and Team Toronto were unanimously allowed because they replicated the effect of current cards.

[mr brown]

a great time to play test new cards or any tweaks or changes to rules is at a open tournament with players from many areas around north America. the Friday DC3 counting for point should increase participation.

[BlueFire]

I thought it was important to say that Nick Williams posted the following in a different thread.

"2. Playtested X-men - The expansion was sent to us basically complete.  We made some recommendations here and there, most if not all made it in."

Of course this would include DoW.  Keith may not have known about this when saying DoW was not tested.

[BigBadHarve]

I thought it was important to say that Nick Williams posted the following in a different thread.

"2. Playtested X-men - The expansion was sent to us basically complete.  We made some recommendations here and there, most if not all made it in."

Of course this would include DoW.  Keith may not have known about this when saying DoW was not tested.

I still have my doubts. This is, after all, the same group that 'playtested' Four Freedoms Plaza and Vertigo.

In any case, the result is undeniable - a card that needs adjustment.

[Carlos7195]

I have played with the dumping activator rule.  It does definitely help in making a battle site worthwhile.  When Dow is in play it results in more than losing than 4 cards.  With the home base of placing any heroes it was already a huge advantage without adding Dow.  Dumping activators on dow is a step in the right direction.  Battlesites allow soooo many more decks that are playable but with the current rule no one will play them and be competitive.

[breadmaster]

preach, brother!