Toronto Meetup #3 - TOURNAMENT AND Rule Reform info!

[BigBadHarve]

Hey all!

So here's the promised information on our upcoming tournament on April 30th!

The only thing not 100% confirmed is our space. I have arranged to get a conference room at Metro Hall in downtown Toronto, complete with endorsement from my local councillor! The paperwork has been filed, all that remains is for the city to contact me with the booking information and for me to go down and lock in a room that meets our needs.

If that falls through, I'll post our backup location as soon as I can.

Here's a quick link to the rule reforms - https://sites.google.com/site/overpowerintoronto/

If you have ANY questions or concerns about the Rule Reforms, please don't hesitate to contact me right away. Ideally I would like everyone comfortable with them.

I will not be participating in the tournament, that way I can focus entirely on judging without distraction. Having played in tournaments where judges are also participants, I've seen many bad calls because the judge is focused on their own game and doesn't take the proper time to examine a dispute.

-BBH

TORONTO OVERPOWER TOURNAMENT

Saturday April 30th, 2010

Location:  TORONTO, Canada - Exact Location TBC

Sign in: 12:00 pm – 12:45 pm

Entry Fee: $10

Pay at the door, or register in advance via Interac or Paypal to – moneygohere@gmail.com

No need to register in advance, but it would help me gauge confirmed numbers, which I will post in regular updates.

Games begin: 1:00 pm

4 rounds of swiss to determine top 8.

Tie-break round, if necessary.

Top 8 advance to the elimination rounds. 3 single elimination rounds to determine overall winner.


Rule restrictions: Using Toronto OP Rule reforms. Be sure to familiarize yourself with the rule adjustments. Here's the link to the document - https://sites.google.com/site/overpowerintoronto/


Allowable Proxies: MARVELS only. Any other card must be official. For Marvels, make sure the text on your card is accurate and clear, you will also need to back your cards with sleeves. A list of all correct 'Marvels' texts will be present for reference.



Prizes

Entry gift: Any Power (5) promo card


Prizes will be based on attendance, I apologize for the somewhat nebulous nature of the prizing. I'll keep adding prizes as more people confirm, and keep the updates coming.

Prize for 1st place. (Min. 14 participants)

Batman: Detective Holographic hero card.


2nd Place prize: (Min. 18 participants)

Beyonder Promo Character card


3rd Place prize: (Min. 23 participants)

Classic Insert: Image Inducer


BONUS PRIZE: If 20 or more players are in attendance, and winning player manages to go undefeated for the entire tournament, A TWO-FACE: CRIME BOSS Holographic hero will be rewarded as a bonus prize.


In Addition - As more people sign up (or show up) there will be more prizing.


Possible Additional prizes will include:

DC Holographic heroes
DC promo any heroes
Mega Power Promo set
Unopened Original OP booster box

[gameplan.exe]

I just read through your changes and I think I like them all!

I have 2 questions, for clarification.

in rule 9, you said Tactic cards must be played at the top of your turn. Does this include DoubleShot cards? I thought those could be follow ups to AA & AB...

Also, regarding Comm.Gordon's Inherent Ability, how would Universe: Basic cards count toward Venture, when played defensively?

[BigBadHarve]

I just read through your changes and I think I like them all!

I have 2 questions, for clarification.

in rule 9, you said Tactic cards must be played at the top of your turn. Does this include DoubleShot cards? I thought those could be follow ups to AA & AB...

Also, regarding Comm.Gordon's Inherent Ability, how would Universe: Basic cards count toward Venture, when played defensively?

Thanks!

Yes, it applies to Doubleshots, so they can't be used as a follow up. That's actually official, I didn't change anything there, I simply reprinted it for absolute clarity.

For Gordon's inherent: If you play a BU to boost a power card defense, the BU hangs around as a venture bonus for that battle.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

For Gordon's inherent: If you play a BU to boost a power card defense, the BU hangs around as a venture bonus for that battle.

Oh, sweet. So, if I use a 6+3 BU for defense, then the BU stays on the table as a +3 to VT?

[BigBadHarve]

Oh, sweet. So, if I use a 6+3 BU for defense, then the BU stays on the table as a +3 to VT?

Yeah, that was the idea behind it.

-BBH

[Nostalgic]

Oh, sweet. So, if I use a 6+3 BU for defense, then the BU stays on the table as a +3 to VT?

Yeah, that was the idea behind it.

-BBH

That was a great idea!

[BigBadHarve]

Oh, sweet. So, if I use a 6+3 BU for defense, then the BU stays on the table as a +3 to VT?

Yeah, that was the idea behind it.

-BBH

That was a great idea!

I wish I could take credit for that one. It was one of Lorne's (my usual playing partner.)

-BBH

[Onslaught]

Isn't adding inherent abilities to cards more along the lines of "homemades" than it is "house rules?"

It seems kind of arbitrary to have some cards played as written and some not. For example, unerrataed Fortress and Leech are 100x stronger than unerrataed Mutant Gestalt.

Teamworks going to the powerpack instead of dead pile completely ruins the incentive to make a deck that is oriented on winning in the powerpack. Not that games will go to the powerpack in this format, I'm just saying.

Any Heroes being able to followup allies or be followup attacks while activators can't seems awkward. Furthermore, this would be a good change in the current rules (Any Heroes are worse than Battlesites), but with unerrataed Leech and stuff Any Heroes are already insanely powerful.

Defensive Vertigo at OPD is 1000x stronger than unlimited offensive Vertigo. If you made this change intending to buff Marauders, then nevermind. If not, it seems like just changing things for the sake of changing.

The homebase rule to allow more special cards would have been a cool idea if all the existing cards had been designed with it in mind in advance. As it stands, it makes some bad homebases marginally better, and makes some already good homebases get unwarranted buffs. Seems like more changing stuff just for the sake of changing it, since it doesn't effect which homebases will be played most frequently.

The Four Freedoms errata is strange, I'm not sure why a tier 2 deck would need to be intentionally toned down. If this is because you feel the added homebase special rule makes FF4 too powerful, then it means your rules changes are just making different homebases/characters more playable instead of making more homebases/chars more playable. That's not changing things for added balance, it's changing things so there is still a top tier - just featuring different faces.

The way things are set up, you might as well name this format "concede every battle that you don't have a negate."

That being said, I don't think any of the DC characters inherents make them vault into the upper echelon of decks, nobody will use basic universe cards even with the new bonus, no new homebases become more attractive than the ones that people already used, and none of the top characters are any worse off. So basically competitive decks in this home rules environment would look pretty much the same as they do now, though Marauders move into top tier, negates became even more mandatory than they previously were, and good homebases get slightly better (Asteroid M gets a free 11, Onslaught's Citadel without the 7 card draw drawback gains a CRAZY trick for free depending on the lineup you use, etc).

[drdeath25]

So let me get this straight. your house rules to make more cards playable in fact makes nobody more playable than the previously were except the Marauders, and meanwhile the lesser used characters will become EVEN MORE lesser used because I won't have room for them in decks since I have to make sure I have a negate character? Wow. I'm not gonna be there...

[Onslaught]

Yeah the more I think about this, I am just completely baffled. If you go to the trouble of making a 10 page rules document and changing the rules that everyone already knows, you would think it was to make the weaker cards more powerful. These rules don't do that (DC characters still weak, weak homebases still weak), so the next thought might be that the strongest characters would be nerfed (though I'd argue against this as a means of balance, as noted numerous times in the past). However, the only thing weakened was a deck that was already tier 2 (FF4), while a tier 1.5 character (Marauders) became even more powerful, tier 1.5 archetypes (the good homebases) became even stronger, and existing tier 1 characters (negaters) became even more essential.

I guess I'm just strongly against the idea of "changing things for the sake of change" when it has no measurable impact on the metagame outside of barely shuffling around the top tier. If that was your intention (and if you find the game more fun to play this way!), then I'm way off base here. Still strange though!

[drdeath25]

no measurable impact on the metagame outside of barely shuffling around the top tier.

Well, maybe the Marauders are his favorite character, and he wanted to make them more playable? 
Post Merge: July 14, 2011, 11:11:22 AM
Even if these rules expanded the usability of a bunch of cards (they don't though...), it also inadvertantly DECREASES the usability of some cards unfairly. For example New Lease on Life is completely worthless with these rules. I'm sure there are other lesser used cards that are hurt by these rules instead of helped, but what's the point of changing rules if you are hurting as many cards as you help? It's a net gain of zero.

Some of these rules have clearly not been thought out or playtested...

[rucker73]

 

Wow. I'm not gonna be there...

Thank god

[BigBadHarve]

While I certainly expected some resistance, I find it disappointing how you'll disparage it all out of hand without testing them out. If you have no interest in trying them out, that's fine. I understand completely, but allow me to illustrate my motivations for the Reforms.  You do have a solid grounding in the game, so I do welcome your input, but don't think I just arbitrarily sat down one day and go 'Hmmm... let's change the rules around because I can!'  

It wasn't about empowering or de-powering characters. The characters are what they are, fixing that requires going into the realm of homemades and more cards. I wanted a system that worked with the existing template. I knew changes would affect the characters, but I didn't set out with a list of teams and bases that I thought needed a boost or, as it is so often put - a nerf.

The primary push was what I perceived as a broken rule set. There were just too many errata that got in the way, and a convoluted set of Meta Rules that more often than not contradicted the text on the cards.

The basic game is brilliant, fun, and unique. Back when I was learning I got frustrated as hell playing cards as I thought they were meant to be played, only to be informed 'No, no they aren't played that way.' 'But it says this on the card' 'Yeah, but it doesn't say that in the rules'

This also became an issue when trying to teach people to play. After two rounds of play most new players would give up because of all the things they are supposed to know that AREN'T on the cards.

In order for the game to flow, it had to be plain. You can't have a billion errata that a player is expected to know. Even veteran players are always questioning the way cards are played because they can't remember this errata or that rule change.

So, simplicity and versatility was the goal. Play all cards as written and see what happens. And so we did, and the game opened up immensely! Yes, there were errata that had to stand. But we shrunk the list down considerably.

Then it became about fine tuning. Finding extra details that we could tweak to spice things up. (Like the recycling of certain cards, or the Homebase special rule.)

Isn't adding inherent abilities to cards more along the lines of "homemades" than it is "house rules?"

Yes and no. This was sort of a final area where we decided since we were making adjustments we'd try them out and see. We liked the result so we kept it.

It seems kind of arbitrary to have some cards played as written and some not. For example, unerrataed Fortress and Leech are 100x stronger than unerrataed Mutant Gestalt.

Arbitrary? No. Any Errata we kept were primarily for consistency. Mutant Gestalt and Rhino Charge being examples. As to the power, yes. Leech as written is powerful. But aren't you the one who has repeatedly stated that Anyheroes are weak? Again, it was about what was on the card, not in some obscure ruling. And betting high thinking that you'll just Fortress anyway can backfire on you big time. Our solution to the Power of the Any-hero was to discard them to the dead heroes pile, which we found worked brilliantly.

On the issue of arbitrary rules - half of the cards already arbitrarily ignore meta rules that are set out. Look at the duration rule. We didn't change it per se, we simply created a situation where it has a blanket effect on ALL cards.

Officially, any card that has no printed duration and is an OPD, is considered game lasting. Non-OPD is battle lasting. I thought that was a great rule, until I learned that it wasn't a blanket rule, it was arbitrary. My favourite example would be Leader. He has two cards with the EXACT SAME stipulation. Freehold and Twisted Mentality. The cards remain in play until Leader is KOd. (Or, in the case of Mentality, also cannot be attacked.) Both are non-OPDs. So, since 'until KO'd' is not considered a duration,  Twisted Mentality is considered battle lasting. So what about Freehold? It's not OPD, and doesn't have a duration printed, and since its stipulation of lasting 'until KOd' doesn't count, under official rules it is battle lasting only. Making it a truly useless card.

You could argue that 'logically' by virtue of the nature of the card, it must remain beyond the battle. But once you open that door, everything becomes arbitrary. The rule must apply to ALL cards.

Teamworks going to the powerpack instead of dead pile completely ruins the incentive to make a deck that is oriented on winning in the powerpack. Not that games will go to the powerpack in this format, I'm just saying.

Would you care to point out the section in which I say Teamworks are recyclable?

Any Heroes being able to followup allies or be followup attacks while activators can't seems awkward. Furthermore, this would be a good change in the current rules (Any Heroes are worse than Battlesites), but with unerrataed Leech and stuff Any Heroes are already insanely powerful.

So let me get this straight - you repeatedly state that Any Heroes are inferior by nature to battlesites, but shoot down any attempt to make them stronger?  Leech as written is tougher, yes. But it's not game breaking, not compared to some cards you can put into a battlesite. Battlesites offer incredible versatility, that's their strength. Anyheroes offer power. That's theirs.

Ally cards clearly state 'teammate must play a special card.'  Any Heroes are special cards. Hence the reason for allowing it. Again, it's a more intuitive response. Activators are not specials. Yes, they summon specials, but you can't play the special until the activator has been initiated. The ability to chain any heroes with an Ally doesn't make them insanely stronger, it's just a nice push.

Defensive Vertigo at OPD is 1000x stronger than unlimited offensive Vertigo. If you made this change intending to buff Marauders, then nevermind. If not, it seems like just changing things for the sake of changing.

You love your hyperbole, don't you? Again, this decision was in line with our 'play as written' mandate. It's better as a defensive special, but not 1000x better, as you put it. And as an OPD it shakes up Marauders in a battlesite, so you can't get vertigo AND a killer OPD.

The homebase rule to allow more special cards would have been a cool idea if all the existing cards had been designed with it in mind in advance. As it stands, it makes some bad homebases marginally better, and makes some already good homebases get unwarranted buffs. Seems like more changing stuff just for the sake of changing it, since it doesn't effect which homebases will be played most frequently.

It was more along the lines of an extra push for people who wanted to use Homebases. You're limited to 6 characters, often with messed up grids. The benefit? A couple of extra cards and possible aspect. What you lose in versatility, you gain with a little extra boost.

The Four Freedoms errata is strange, I'm not sure why a tier 2 deck would need to be intentionally toned down. If this is because you feel the added homebase special rule makes FF4 too powerful, then it means your rules changes are just making different homebases/characters more playable instead of making more homebases/chars more playable. That's not changing things for added balance, it's changing things so there is still a top tier - just featuring different faces.

This was about bringing it's inherent more in line with other homebases. Agree with it or not, we felt this struck the right balance when comparing homebase inherents. On that level, it's still a strong inherent.

The way things are set up, you might as well name this format "concede every battle that you don't have a negate."

Again with the hyperbole. Newsflash - The game didn't need my help to get to that point.

That being said, I don't think any of the DC characters inherents make them vault into the upper echelon of decks, nobody will use basic universe cards even with the new bonus, no new homebases become more attractive than the ones that people already used, and none of the top characters are any worse off. So basically competitive decks in this home rules environment would look pretty much the same as they do now, though Marauders move into top tier, negates became even more mandatory than they previously were, and good homebases get slightly better (Asteroid M gets a free 11, Onslaught's Citadel without the 7 card draw drawback gains a CRAZY trick for free depending on the lineup you use, etc).

The DC inherents were meant to be fun. I never said they would escalate them to 'must use' status, but they make using DC characters a touch more interesting.

The recycling of Basic Universe, Training and DS cards, like the DC inherents, wasn't about making them 'must use' cards. It was about versatility. Somebody who opts to use them gets a nice little bonus if they go into power pack. But it certainly doesn't make them mandatory.

Bear in mind with the Citadel, that you can build an identical team several ways without the homebase! So you can still get your crazy trick, you just won't see people using the base.

Regardless, I have tested these rules and they are sound. A tweak may come up here or there, but they are far easier to play, and options open up. Yes, perhaps you're right and there's been a shuffle in what is considered 'top tier' - but for a long time player, I would think you might appreciate a shake up in the status quo.

Wow. I'm not gonna be there...

Riiight, because you were on the verge of booking your flight, I'm sure....

Even if these rules expanded the usability of a bunch of cards (they don't though...), it also inadvertantly DECREASES the usability of some cards unfairly. For example New Lease on Life is completely worthless with these rules. I'm sure there are other lesser used cards that are hurt by these rules instead of helped, but what's the point of changing rules if you are hurting as many cards as you help? It's a net gain of zero.

Some of these rules have clearly not been thought out or playtested...

In what way is New Lease on Life worthless? It's an incredibly useful event on so many levels, even if your any heroes can no longer be recycled. Are you saying that all of your any hero decks rely so much on your any heroes that you need to recycle them back?

I am open to opinions. Give me a list of cards that become worthless under this system, and tell me why.

-BBH

[rucker73]

I have to admit that I like my Overpower the old fashioned way.  I haven't mastered it as is and the thought of trying to learn new rules and try to build decks that will compete within them is daunting.

But on the other side.  This game has been out of circulation for over 10 years.  WE have been playing with the same cards and rules all this time despite the fact that the game would have almost definitely changed had it kept running anyways.  People all over the place have been finding ways to keep the game fresh and exciting and more power to them.

As far as BBH making people come and play by HIS rules, who cares!! He isn't MAKING anyone go, people choose to because they, like him want to try a fresh spin on something they already love (like Crystal Pepsi )  He has given up a lot of his own time and is supplying the prizes.  So who are you people to criticize him or anyone for that matter?  You are more than welcome to hold your own tournament with your own rules and do whatever you want, more power to you.

I just don't get where all of this hostility and negativity comes from, you have both been posting here for a long time with no issues and recently you have taken a very "holier then thou" attitude in your interactions with everyone.

Anyways...  just venting

Keep up the good work everyone

[Nostalgic]

So here's my 2 cents plus interest on BBH rules.  

1.   Hadn't tried it, but probably Great Idea.
2.   This is ok. Since it doesn't address card advantage I'm not sure if it's enough to make the cards truly playable.  I actually think making the bonus of basic universe cards used for defense an addition to venture total to be a good blanket rule.
3.   Love it.
4.   Any-character limitation change is cool.  On 'Power leech' I'm sort of 'iffy' on that change (leaning-no).  I don't have enough experience with it.  
5.   OK. What's the point of double shift?
6.   I like this. I assume the code on the cards don't have to be different than the 'any-heroes' in the deck.
7.   How many characters does this help?  I'm just not sure of the point letting the inactive guy boost his team that way. It seems like it may be unfair. This is a genuine question as I want to know your experience with this.
8,   Cool, I guess...
9.   Cool.
10. I thought combined cards already shared properties.  So hulk could make a level 13 F/S special attack?       "HULK IS THE STRONGEST THERE IIIIIS!!!" (Sorry, couldn't help it  )
11.   Cool.
12.   Cool.
13.   Love it.Can't think of anything more appropriate than for a comic character to cheat death.
14.   Cool.
15.   Love it.
16.   Cool.
17.   Cool. (Example?)

On the Errata:
I love the fix for Hulk's BC special. My question is if Hulk and Venom and Rhino are on the same team could I make the reserve miss 3 battles *insert evil maniacal laugh!*  

I strongly disagree with the fourfreedoms change.   I think ALL 6-character locations used as homebases should be allowed to shift attacks if those attacks are defended with a power card based defense.  That blanket rule would make many more playable.  This is ultimately the point I thought.    Also online I saw some homemade-homebases   that said," team's power grid is an eight e/f/s/I (whatever was appropriate) for defense" as another way of making them more playable.  

Everything else looks good to me.