her inherent allows her to keep duplicate AGs
1) does this allow her to have unlimited AGs (ie triplicates and up)...how strict were they on 'duplicates'?
2) her HQ (draw 3 cards, discard duplicates). does a dupe AG drawn with this have to be disacarded (as indicated on the special) or can she keep it (as per the inherent)
1) Yes, you can have 8 AGs in your hand if you want.
2) Yes, you don't ignore the HQ's text on discarding duplicates. If you have 7 AGs in your hand and 1 HQ and draw 3 AGs from the HQ, you would have to discard all 3 (but none of the 7). Basically, the HQ prevents the drawn cards to match any card in your hand.
Quote from: Jack on January 27, 2012, 01:09:17 AM
2) Yes, you don't ignore the HQ's text on discarding duplicates. If you have 7 AGs in your hand and 1 HQ and draw 3 AGs from the HQ, you would have to discard all 3 (but none of the 7). Basically, the HQ prevents the drawn cards to match any card in your hand.
Are you sure? - I've always been of the impression that the inherent ability trumps the wording on the HQ.
-BBH
I was going by the Tournament guide since there's no other clarification:
QuoteHQ (Offensive) Playing this Special allows the player to draw three new cards from the top of the Draw Pile . Any of the three new cards must be discarded if it is a duplicate of any card still held in hand or placed. This counts as your action for the turn.
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I slightly read your rebuttal wrong, but to clarify my thoughts:
It's akin to the Any Hero Bastion with Team OverPower. Even if the Bastion is placed on Team OverPower, it can still only defend Any Hero/Character specials.
There's also the duration of the Inherent Ability. My thoughts were that this inherent gets you through
only the discard phase. There's no other time where you would normally discard cards and thus once your discards are done, this inherent doesn't apply. The 'Guide to Inherent Abilities' even list that the inherent is only active during the Discard Phase.
I would think that the discarding on the HQ was simply to tell you that you follow normal discarding rules for duplicates so that if the discarding rules have been modified by another game effect like an inherent ability or an event then you would take those modifications into account. I would see the HQ as a new draw event with a normal discard event after. That would mean keeping duplicates that you would normally be allowed to keep in your hand during the initial turn draw.
The reason why this is very different from the Team Overpower/Bastion situation is because Team Overpower simply allows you to place Any Heroes on it. This is not stating that this placing overrides any other game effects that placing those specials may be subject to. The inherent ability of Shadowcat is actually saying you can have duplicates of her AG. That means that it is overriding a game effect.
i agree
I'm trying to argue that the inherent ability's effect only sticks around during the discard phase as noted in the Guide to Inherent Abilities. It only nullifies the fact you have to discard duplicates to have a legal hand to start off the battle. At every point during the battle, any card that is drawn and duplicate gets a new ruling from either the card or a meta rule.
i'm leaning towards jack's view (but can be easily swayed). it's almost like it's a condition of the special...draw 3 but discard duplicates. though he's arguing more that it's a function of WHEN you're allowed to keep dupes
what if the 'don't discard dupes' event is in play when that special is played...still discard dupes, or keep em?
Quote from: Jack on January 28, 2012, 10:02:27 AM
I'm trying to argue that the inherent ability's effect only sticks around during the discard phase as noted in the Guide to Inherent Abilities. It only nullifies the fact you have to discard duplicates to have a legal hand to start off the battle. At every point during the battle, any card that is drawn and duplicate gets a new ruling from either the card or a meta rule.
I think that if the only actually ruling text available follows as you say then there isn't much one could do to prove otherwise. I would counter that though by saying that a lot of those clarifications and explanations are basically stating the obvious and shouldn't be used to override effects that should actually be taking precedence.
To explain: Shadowcat's ability lets her keep duplicate AG's. The guide says this takes effect during the discard phase. Given the rules as they are without any cards modifying them, this is always true because there aren't times you draw cards during the game except the initial draw followed by a discard phase. The HQ special modifies the rules by creating a new draw and subsequent discard phase. In this instance the "discard duplicates" is another statement based on all other things being equal and also as a counterpoint to AT specials which allow you to keep duplicates. So, that is what I meant by saying the discard duplicates on the HQ could be read as "discard duplicates as one would normally do" because the card has no knowledge of nor per-supposes the presence of an effect that allows you to not discard certain duplicates.
My arguments were based off reading both the IA guide and the TG separately. If one were to logically solve this problem with just those, he would come to the same conclusion.
I'm willing to concede my argument if JohnL posts his opinion about this. He's the one with the famous 36x Ghostly Phase deck. I'm sure he probably ran into this situation before.
Card text trumps any floating effects. For example, if someone used the Eye of the Storm "keep dupes" event and you played an HQ, you would still be required to discard. Same thing with Shadowcat's inherent ability or Mr. Sinister's Cloning Process.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 30, 2012, 06:53:21 PM
Card text trumps any floating effects. For example, if someone used the Eye of the Storm "keep dupes" event and you played an HQ, you would still be required to discard. Same thing with Shadowcat's inherent ability or Mr. Sinister's Cloning Process.
I'm not entirely sure I follow this explanation. I get what you're saying in part, but I think this statement is missing some qualifiers. Obviously not all card text overrides floating effects. Effects that place restrictions on the battle can't be overridden because your card says so. If an event says no strength cards may be played and you play an AE that says you can combine it with a strength card you can't play the strength card just because your special says you can. That may be a poor example of what I am trying to say, but I think there are probably a lot of conflicts like that.
As far as the original point, I think Jack wasn't even saying that the HQ text to discard duplicates trumps Shadowcat's IA. I think he was saying her ability doesn't even apply in that phase at all.
I've always taken it that personal Inherent Abilities trump everything else (even Home Base I.A.'s).
For example, Colossus: AoA says his Strength Power card attacks cannot be moved. That means that, even though a Special card may be played to change that (AC), it cannot be played because of his I.A. If he played a Strength Power card attack agains Four Freedoms Plaza, it couldn't be moved then either. If the HELLFIRE CLUB ATTACKED Event was in play, his Strength Power card attacks couldn't be moved to the Reserve, either.
That's how I've always played personal Inherent Abilities. That's what makes them Inherent, it takes no other outside influence into consideration (except cards that affect Inherent Abilities ;))
Okay, now I'm officially confused. :o For the record, I've been playing IA as ncannelora and BBH have described.
It's not that complicated, just do whatever a card says (assuming it is legal for you to play it in the first place).
Quote from: Onslaught on February 02, 2012, 06:40:37 AM
It's not that complicated, just do whatever a card says (assuming it is legal for you to play it in the first place).
I think that's the part that's confusing about what you're saying. Every effect in the game comes from cards. Also, if there is a determination of certain cards overriding effects it's hard to determine what's legal.
Quote from: Onslaught on February 02, 2012, 06:40:37 AM
It's not that complicated, just do whatever a card says (assuming it is legal for you to play it in the first place).
Play as written? You're starting to sound like BBH 8)
Quote from: Palatinus on February 02, 2012, 08:47:38 AM
I think that's the part that's confusing about what you're saying. Every effect in the game comes from cards. Also, if there is a determination of certain cards overriding effects it's hard to determine what's legal.
What's not to understand? If you can legally play a card, just do what the card says. Your example of a strength attack makes no sense, because you can't play it in the first place.
yeah!
do what the card says! ...execpt when you shouldn't
you know...'simple'
What scenario exists where you shouldn't do what the text on a card says? Assume that all cards have their errata text written on them. There is no "do what the card says, except when you shouldn't LOL!" because you always do what it says.
Scenario: No cards with the word "draw" may be played
Result: You can't play the HQ, it isn't legal to play
Scenario: Mr. Sinister "Cloning Process" is in effect/floating
Result: You play your HQ, but discard any drawn duplicates since the card tells you to do so
Scenario: No strength attacks may be played
Result: You can't play a special card that acts as a strength attack
How is this hard to understand?
I know Im jumping in here late but IMO Shadowcats Inherant ability makes her AGs not duplicates. So if she draws 3 discard duplicates those are not duplicates.
Assuming you mean Ghostly Phase (I think that's her AG) then you are correct.