1) can an activator be used to follow up an ally card? can an any hero?
2) can you negate placed specials that haven't been played yet?
1) No. Activators are not specials, and as such may not follow allies. On the Any Hero front, even though they are specials, it was ruled that they must also be played as their own action, and therefore cannot follow up an Ally.
2) Also no. You can only negate a special that has been played. Of course, there are other cards to force your opponent to discard placed cards.
-BBH
thanks guys...here's 3 more questions
1) can any power cards be used to follow up a teamwork?
2) can you negate a special on a dead character to reduce opponent's venture total?
3) why did the dinosaurs die out?
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Zombie apocalypse
ok, here's another one
omega red's special that says his stats (forget which) increase to 7 in the next battle. is the increase permanent, or does it only last that battle?
Quote from: breadmaster on March 10, 2011, 04:08:08 AM
ok, here's another one
omega red's special that says his stats (forget which) increase to 7 in the next battle. is the increase permanent, or does it only last that battle?
Only that one battle, stupidly enough.
-BBH
so one battle, where i may, or may not draw a single card that matters...ouch
though i guess if it was for the game, it would be awfully powerful from a battlesite
ok, here's another question
regarding 'avoid one attack made with a universe card' cards: if you're attacked with an ally card, could this card be used to avoid the follow up, or just the ally card itself?
Quote from: breadmaster on March 10, 2011, 03:15:09 PM
so one battle, where i may, or may not draw a single card that matters...ouch
though i guess if it was for the game, it would be awfully powerful from a battlesite
ok, here's another question
regarding 'avoid one attack made with a universe card' cards: if you're attacked with an ally card, could this card be used to avoid the follow up, or just the ally card itself?
I don't think it would be any more powerful than other grid modifiers that are remainder of game.
For the Ally question - no, the follow up special is not considered to be 'boosted' by the ally and is therefore not a universe card attack. The ally simply activates the special.
-BBH
Good questions, breadmaster. I had some of those questions as well. Its kind of nice knowing some of us are still in the learning stages. There's so much new stuff to learn.
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 10, 2011, 03:53:54 PM
Quote from: breadmaster on March 10, 2011, 03:15:09 PM
so one battle, where i may, or may not draw a single card that matters...ouch
though i guess if it was for the game, it would be awfully powerful from a battlesite
ok, here's another question
regarding 'avoid one attack made with a universe card' cards: if you're attacked with an ally card, could this card be used to avoid the follow up, or just the ally card itself?
I don't think it would be any more powerful than other grid modifiers that are remainder of game.
For the Ally question - no, the follow up special is not considered to be 'boosted' by the ally and is therefore not a universe card attack. The ally simply activates the special.
-BBH
But the avoid does work on teamwork follow-ups, right?
Quote from: Dog on March 11, 2011, 08:35:07 AM
But the avoid does work on teamwork follow-ups, right?
Yes, as the power card is considered to be part of the Universe card attack, ergo a universe card.
That also means you can't use an 'only universe' defensive special to stop a teamwork, but you can use it against a special that's initiated by an ally.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 11, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
That also means you can't use an 'only universe' defensive special to stop a teamwork, but you can use it against a special that's initiated by an ally.
-BBH
Can you give an example?
Quote from: Dog on March 11, 2011, 09:30:12 AM
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 11, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
That also means you can't use an 'only universe' defensive special to stop a teamwork, but you can use it against a special that's initiated by an ally.
-BBH
Can you give an example?
Yes, Beast's 'Acrobatics' card, and She Hulk's 'Elbow Grease' both protect the character from everything BUT universe cards.
"Only attacks made with Universe cards may be played against Beast for remainder of battle."
So that card won't stop a teamwork or its follow ups. It won't stop an Ally, but it WILL stop a special played as a follow up to an Ally because the special isn't considered part of the universe card.
-BBH
Okay, right, that makes sense. Thanks!
I've got a question here. If an opponent's character is hit with a GA special (ie Sentinels - Mutant Countermeasures), does that prevent the character from being defended by Activators?
Quote from: Nate Grey on March 12, 2011, 01:48:34 AM
I've got a question here. If an opponent's character is hit with a GA special (ie Sentinels - Mutant Countermeasures), does that prevent the character from being defended by Activators?
Yes and no. The character who has been targeted by mutant countermeasures cannot, because they can't play specials... but a teammate may still defend them with specials and activators.
-BBH
So any activators that call up teammate defense will still defend the GA-hit person. So if you have Colossus' LO and Cable's AD (or even Nightcrawler's DZ - if played offensively (or if you still play it defensively, like we do ;) ), they can all still defend the GA-hit person.
Thanks for the info guys. Very valuable stuff to learn now that I'm being exposed to people playing Battlesites for the first time. ;)
Oh! Here's another! If a character is hit with an FD Special (ie Red Skull - Cosmic Cube), can the opponent still use Activators?
yes but it is the reverse of the above rules. You can't use any activators that say teammate on them.
Quote from: rucker73 on March 12, 2011, 08:55:43 AM
yes but it is the reverse of the above rules. You can't use any activators that say teammate on them.
Reverse of the above rules? Wow, okay, now my brain is fried. ;D
sorry I mean that Yes your character that is affected by Cosmic Cube or Soul Gem can still use activators, but you can't use any that require a teammate (Teammate Avoids or Attack made on Teammate is now made on other character)
another question regarding universe/double shots
can training, basic universe, and doubleshot cards be combined with anypower and multipower cards?
what exactly constitutes a duplicate double shot? is it just the first icon, the first and second icons, or both icons and the required card text?
might as well throw in a question about the image inducer too. it says teammate needs 5 any power to use. the other cards say 5 or greater, or 5 or less...does this card require a teammate with a 5 stat on the nose?
1-Training and Basic Universe (as well as teamwork) can be combined with Multipower or Anypower although this then declares the attack in the skill of the universe bonus on the off-chance that your opponent is using a single skill avoid of some sort. They cannot however cannot be combined the with doubleshots. (The difference probably being because the bonuses from the universe cards disappear so even with a multi it's only 1 Hit, but with a doubleshot it would be 2 Hits).
2-I know with Teamworks its only the first "to use" number that causes duplication. I honestly don't recall if its the same for doubleshots, but then again if my opponent wants to stick two doubleshots in their deck I'm probably not going to going to complain either way - lol.
3 - I would say the X-men image inducer should say "5 or less." Certainly if you've ever seen the original Classic Accidental Insert Version the "or less" text is present
Quote from: breadmaster on March 12, 2011, 05:53:44 PM
another question regarding universe/double shots
can training, basic universe, and doubleshot cards be combined with anypower and multipower cards?
what exactly constitutes a duplicate double shot? is it just the first icon, the first and second icons, or both icons and the required card text?
might as well throw in a question about the image inducer too. it says teammate needs 5 any power to use. the other cards say 5 or greater, or 5 or less...does this card require a teammate with a 5 stat on the nose?
For Training, Basic Universe (and of course Teamworks) Yes, you can use multipower and Any power power cards.
For doubleshots on the other hand, you can't. You must use the power card specifically outlined in the Doubleshot.
Duplicate Doubleshots are based on the requirement for the character to use and the teammate requirement.
The secondary requirement on the Image inducer means that anyone with a 5 or less in any stat may use it. (So anyone at all. ;) ) Of course, you still need the 6 energy to activate it.
Cheers!
-BBH
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
Dude beat me to it! ;)
-BBH
another few:
are you able to pass with power cards in your hand, or are you compelled to play them offensively?
what about specials that can be used for offense or defense?
if you've passed on an earlier turn, are you still able to play fortress of solitude/new universe, or is that now forbidden?
can you play a BQ defensively, then play the special you retrieve in one action?
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:57 PM
and here's another one regarding sue storm
her +2 venture per battle...does she have to survive the battle for this to activate, or is it active immediately?
Quote from: breadmaster on March 12, 2011, 11:26:31 PM
another few:
are you able to pass with power cards in your hand, or are you compelled to play them offensively?
what about specials that can be used for offense or defense?
if you've passed on an earlier turn, are you still able to play fortress of solitude/new universe, or is that now forbidden?
can you play a BQ defensively, then play the special you retrieve in one action?
No, if you have a usable attack in your hand, you must make it. You can't pass with power cards in hand to save them for defense.
Same goes for Specials that can attack and defend.
Once you've passed, you can't play anything. You can only pass again or concede. Defending is the exception, you can always play a defensive action.
BQs can't be played defensively. They must be played on your own turn.
Quote from: breadmaster on March 12, 2011, 11:51:00 PM
and here's another one regarding sue storm
her +2 venture per battle...does she have to survive the battle for this to activate, or is it active immediately?
Aye, that's the rub. She must survive for you to gain the +2 to Venture. Once she's gone, so's the bonus.
-BBH
Question about passing with specials in hand... would you have to play Beast's Acrobatics if it was your turn? Or can you save it to play defensively?
Quote from: rucker73 on March 13, 2011, 08:52:56 AM
Question about passing with specials in hand... would you have to play Beast's Acrobatics if it was your turn? Or can you save it to play defensively?
Yes, that one you can. Basically, anything that affects your opponent or anything on his side of the table is an attack. Acrobatics doesn't affect your opponent so you can pass with it in hand. But if you had a negate in hand, you wouldn't be able to save it IF your opponent had a lasting effect in play.
I got nailed in a tournament with this one, because I was holding a negate in hand and my opponent had a 'Charm' in play and a heroes for Hire 11 placed. (the reason I was saving the negate.) That was it. I passed with the negate in hand, which could have been used to cancel his 'Charm' offensively. When he attacked with the 11 and I negated it, he called the judge for a renege because I had passed illegally. It cost me three missions. :(
Now here's where it gets tricky - Let's take that same scenario - negate in hand, BUT the character to whom the negate belongs has been locked down from attacking. You CAN pass because the hit/effect that's locking him down (by say a trick transport or something like that), even though played by the opponent, is on YOUR side of the table and ergo wouldn't be an attack to remove it.
This is the best explanation that was given to me when I was first learning, and got a little muddled in the distinction - In essence, anything that 'crosses over' to generate an effect on the opponent's side of the table is considered an attack. Whether it be a straight up attack, forcing a discard(s), subtracting from venture (but not adding to venture on your own score), manipulating missions etc - they're all considered attacks, and can't be played if you're locked down, and you can't pass if you have them in hand.
Placed cards, of course, are a different story. You CAN pass with an offensive placed card.
Also, once you've passed you cannot play any more cards on your turn. So even if passing with a negate in hand is legal, it's not legal to pass, take a hit, then on your next turn play the card to remove it. Once you pass, you are done. You can only play cards defensively.
-BBH
some follow ups to that point
1) you have an ally in your hand, but no specials. you have a placed special you don't want to play yet. are you compelled to play the ally?
2) what about activators that have an offensive and defensive special corresponding in the site? are you allowed to pass with these?
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:15 PM
and another one
'opponent must discard 1 placed card of ______'s choice'
can this be used on the homebase and reserve?
Quote from: breadmaster on March 13, 2011, 04:03:01 PM
some follow ups to that point
1) you have an ally in your hand, but no specials. you have a placed special you don't want to play yet. are you compelled to play the ally?
2) what about activators that have an offensive and defensive special corresponding in the site? are you allowed to pass with these?
and another one
'opponent must discard 1 placed card of ______'s choice'
can this be used on the homebase and reserve?
1) Yes. If the ally in hand is playable, you must do it.
2) Also no. If you have an activator with an offensive corresponding special in your site, then you cannot pass.
3) Yes. Anything placed to your opponents team, including the base. If it says 'target' must discard, then you can only target a character.
Cheers!
-BBH
so, about those AI specials vs. Battlesite cards...
then you could totally use ScarletWitch's, TheFlash's, GhostRider's, Mandarin's, BlackCat's, and Velocity's since they don't target, but not Iceman's and others' because theirs target characters, right?
hmmm...does this apply to the other universe cards too (training/basic)? assuming the power card is placed?
If its a teamwork, yes. Not sure about basic universe's, i have never used those in an overpower game before.
This might be semantics as far as the Overpower rules are concerned, but does Acrobatics really not stop the follow up attacks from a teamwork?
It seems to me there is a bit of a grey area between "an attack made with" and the type of the attack itself. To me a power card follow up from a teamwork would be a "universe attack made with a power card" as opposed to a universe card which would be a "universe card making a universe attack."
So with the text "Only attacks made with universe cards," wouldn't this mean only actual universe cards? Also the Vision/Storm "No attacks made with universe cards," can this stop the power card follow ups? This also applies to Master Mold, which to me with "Avoid 1 attack made with a power card," would allow you to avoid any power card attack, but wouln't allow you to avoid the teamwork, so I don't see how it goes one way and not the other? Assuming that "with" means the cards that get played along with the attack and not the attack itself (this is confusing, I'm sorry!).
I guess the Overpower rules are what they are, with official examples becoming the rules and thus creating a new meaning that differs from the actual text. Hell if I know.
Props to anyone who can figure out where I'm coming from with this one!
Quote from: Hot Rod on March 14, 2011, 05:45:47 AM
This might be semantics as far as the Overpower rules are concerned, but does Acrobatics really not stop the follow up attacks from a teamwork?
It seems to me there is a bit of a grey area between "an attack made with" and the type of the attack itself. To me a power card follow up from a teamwork would be a "universe attack made with a power card" as opposed to a universe card which would be a "universe card making a universe attack."
So with the text "Only attacks made with universe cards," wouldn't this mean only actual universe cards? Also the Vision/Storm "No attacks made with universe cards," can this stop the power card follow ups? This also applies to Master Mold, which to me with "Avoid 1 attack made with a power card," would allow you to avoid any power card attack, but wouln't allow you to avoid the teamwork, so I don't see how it goes one way and not the other? Assuming that "with" means the cards that get played along with the attack and not the attack itself (this is confusing, I'm sorry!).
I guess the Overpower rules are what they are, with official examples becoming the rules and thus creating a new meaning that differs from the actual text. Hell if I know.
Props to anyone who can figure out where I'm coming from with this one!
Acrobatics won't protect you from power cards that are boosted by a Teamwork. The idea being that since the power card is following a TW, and receives the bonus from the universe card, it is now both a power card AND a universe card. So, 'no universe' or 'avoid 1 universe' is a viable defense... but since it's also still a power card, any 'avoid one power card' is also effective.
The same is not true with Allies, though. The Ally itself IS a universe card, but the follow up special is NOT considered to be boosted and therefore is not a universe card attack.
-BHH
QuoteThis might be semantics
this entire game is semantics, but let me give this a shot :)
My understanding of this argument is drawn from the Meta Rule regarding the X-World location (its last bulletpoint) and Meta Rule #86:
QuoteThe Attack Modification Inherent
"(Team)'s (Card Type) attacks are not affected by Special cards already in play"
Activated: Whenever the character makes an attack of the specified type.
Rules:
...
- A Power Card attack is an attack made with a power card only. It is not any attack made with a Power Card (such as a teamwork follow up).
(86) Power cards that are played as part of a Teamwork attack are still considered to be played as a part of the Teamwork attack (and all icons from the Teamwork card are considered to be a part of the attack). Special cards that are played after playing an Ally card are not considered as part of a Universe card attack. The icons do not join with the Special played.
When a card has the phrase "made with..." then it means any attacks involving the described card.
When a card only specifies a card type, then it doesn't become inclusive with other types of cards/attacks that are made in conjuction.
"No Universe cards may be played against..." would only restrict Universe cards themselves, not their follow ups. Specifically, you could start your Teamwork against some one else, then use the follow up Power cards to penetrate this defense. (I think. This is where I'm drawing on the semantics from X-World).
"Avoid 1 attack made with a Universe card..." would be a Universe Basic/Training with a Power card, a Power card after a teamwork, or the Universe card itself (Teamwork or Ally), but it would
not include a Special card that is played after an Ally card (per MR#86).
"Only attacks made with Universe cards..." would be the opposite... It would
not stop a Basic/Training, it would
not stop a Teamwork
or its follow ups, and it would
not stop an Ally card attack (although it
would still stop the Special that follows up, again, per MR#86).
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:26 PM
By the way, I do know that the semantics attached to X-World do differentiate between X-World's Inherent Ability and the Danger Room's Aspect card.
X-World's Power card follow-up to Teamworks
are affected by Specials.
When Danger Room's Aspect is in play, then their follow-up to Teamworks
are not affected by Specials ;)
I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.
Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.
This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.
Quote from: Onslaught on March 15, 2011, 02:05:54 AM
I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.
Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.
This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.
As a general note to everyone, PLEASE dont post rules answers unless you are positive they are correct. (or at least put "im not sure, but i think that _______ is the correct ruling).
Quote from: drdeath25 on March 15, 2011, 02:20:54 AM
Quote from: Onslaught on March 15, 2011, 02:05:54 AM
I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.
Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.
This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.
As a general note to everyone, PLEASE dont post rules answers unless you are positive they are correct. (or at least put "im not sure, but i think that _______ is the correct ruling).
but im a judge
Quote from: Onslaught on March 15, 2011, 02:05:54 AM
I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.
Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.
and this is despite Meta Rule #86, which is specifically linked to the CD code (the code on Acrobatics)?
Yes, because every tournament ruled it this way in spite of the meta rules as far back as 1997. I don't know if the final version of the metarules are outdated or what (they shouldn't be because they include X-Men aspect codes), but this is how it was played.
There are a lot of things in the rules that are outdated or incorrect or just contrary to what you would think the rules say intuitively. They are a good guide, but don't try to take them as the holy grail 11 years after the fact. For example, you could interpret the rules to say that A-Next can't be placed to Marvel Universe. However, this was commonplace and allowed by judges at the last few large sized OP events after the X-Men release.
Quote from: Onslaught on March 15, 2011, 03:31:27 AM
Yes, because every tournament ruled it this way in spite of the meta rules as far back as 1997. I don't know if the final version of the metarules are outdated or what (they shouldn't be because they include X-Men aspect codes), but this is how it was played.
There are a lot of things in the rules that are outdated or incorrect or just contrary to what you would think the rules say intuitively. They are a good guide, but don't try to take them as the holy grail 11 years after the fact. For example, you could interpret the rules to say that A-Next can't be placed to Marvel Universe. However, this was commonplace and allowed by judges at the last few large sized OP events after the X-Men release.
This really surprises me, coming from you. God knows I understand about not agreeing with official rules, but if I play by them, I play by them.
As contradictory and retarded as they are, the meta rules ARE the holy grail of 'official' overpower rules, even after 11 years. They are all we have to go on, unless you're playing your own way and using a house system anyway.
Just because you played it as a house rule, or the tournament made a ruling against the meta rules, doesn't make it legal. If you are playing by official rules, that's the rule.
Specials followed by allies are NOT considered part of the universe attack. It's right there in black and white. No confusion or dispute. If you choose not to play that way, that's your prerogative, again I know all about chucking the meta-rules to the wind. But please don't tell people that's the official rule especially when presented direct quotes.
A-next can't be placed to the homebase. Any homebase, that is, except Team Overpower which has the inherent that specifically overrides the limitation. This was ruled in all official tournaments I was in. Now, I can't find the placing rule for A-next printed anywhere, so I'm only going by what was officially ruled in my experience. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, I'll take it!
Now, your note about activator attacks is spot on. It's one I've always found ridiculous, but Any attack made from the battlesite is considered to have all the icons that were present on the activator. This was a massive matter for confusion back in the day. If the actual card doesn't have the icon on it, then why is it considered to have the icon? The activator doesn't accompany the special, it exchanges for the special. The rules don't say, play the activator WITH the card, they say EXCHANGE for the card. But that's the official rule.
-BBH
regarding 'character cannot attack for remainder of battle'
if this card is played, can the character still play offensive actions that are not attacks (eg: draw 3, discard duplicates)?
Quote from: breadmaster on March 15, 2011, 03:19:54 PM
regarding 'character cannot attack for remainder of battle'
if this card is played, can the character still play offensive actions that are not attacks (eg: draw 3, discard duplicates)?
Yes. But he's locked from playing anything that would affect the opponent.
-BBH
You can play however you want by trying to interpret the printed rules 11 years after the fact, I'll play by the rules that were enforced at the events I attended.
Also, lol at calling Nationals and 4 or 5 regionals isolated incidents.
Interesting, so if the power cards do combine in that way with the teamwork, does that mean you can use She Hulk's Marvels LO to avoid the power cards follow-ups, and not just the initial teamwork?
I was also wondering about meta #86 when first I saw it on the rules list. Having all the icons from an activator appear on attacks from a battlesite is really weird, and I guess the same can be said for the follow-ups from a teamwork? Seeing as you can't use an activator to defened agasint an AP (except the intellect variant), can the same be said for Hawkeye's AD? Say for example: someone plays a non numerical attacking special from a battlesite, can you avoid it with that AD?
Quote from: BigBadHarve on March 15, 2011, 02:16:14 PM
Now, your note about activator attacks is spot on. It's one I've always found ridiculous, but Any attack made from the battlesite is considered to have all the icons that were present on the activator. This was a massive matter for confusion back in the day. If the actual card doesn't have the icon on it, then why is it considered to have the icon? The activator doesn't accompany the special, it exchanges for the special. The rules don't say, play the activator WITH the card, they say EXCHANGE for the card. But that's the official rule.
-BBH
Though it is strange for a character to be able to avoid a battlesite AV with an AD special, at the very least it weakens battle sites in comparison to any-heros. :-\
Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:02 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod on March 16, 2011, 08:57:49 AM
Interesting, so if the power cards do combine in that way with the teamwork, does that mean you can use She Hulk's Marvels LO to avoid the power cards follow-ups, and not just the initial teamwork?
Yes. Additionally, just about any AD that refers to 'universe' or 'icon' can be used for that matter.
any hero BQs:
do you play the card you're retrieving on the same turn as the switch? do you have an option?
No, once you make the switch your turn is over. You have to wait until your next turn to use the card.