couple more questions (allys and negates)

[gameplan.exe]

so, about those AI specials vs. Battlesite cards...
then you could totally use ScarletWitch's, TheFlash's, GhostRider's, Mandarin's, BlackCat's, and Velocity's since they don't target, but not Iceman's and others' because theirs target characters, right?

[breadmaster]

hmmm...does this apply to the other universe cards too (training/basic)?  assuming the power card is placed?

[drdeath25]

If its a teamwork, yes. Not sure about basic universe's, i have never used those in an overpower game before.

[Hot Rod]

This might be semantics as far as the Overpower rules are concerned, but does Acrobatics really not stop the follow up attacks from a teamwork?

It seems to me there is a bit of a grey area between "an attack made with" and the type of the attack itself.  To me a power card follow up from a teamwork would be a "universe attack made with a power card" as opposed to a universe card which would be a "universe card making a universe attack."

So with the text "Only attacks made with universe cards," wouldn't this mean only actual universe cards?  Also the Vision/Storm "No attacks made with universe cards," can this stop the power card follow ups?  This also applies to Master Mold, which to me with "Avoid 1 attack made with a power card," would allow you to avoid any power card attack, but wouln't allow you to avoid the teamwork, so I don't see how it goes one way and not the other?  Assuming that "with" means the cards that get played along with the attack and not the attack itself (this is confusing, I'm sorry!).

I guess the Overpower rules are what they are, with official examples becoming the rules and thus creating a new meaning that differs from the actual text.  Hell if I know.

Props to anyone who can figure out where I'm coming from with this one!

[BigBadHarve]

This might be semantics as far as the Overpower rules are concerned, but does Acrobatics really not stop the follow up attacks from a teamwork?

It seems to me there is a bit of a grey area between "an attack made with" and the type of the attack itself.  To me a power card follow up from a teamwork would be a "universe attack made with a power card" as opposed to a universe card which would be a "universe card making a universe attack."

So with the text "Only attacks made with universe cards," wouldn't this mean only actual universe cards?  Also the Vision/Storm "No attacks made with universe cards," can this stop the power card follow ups?  This also applies to Master Mold, which to me with "Avoid 1 attack made with a power card," would allow you to avoid any power card attack, but wouln't allow you to avoid the teamwork, so I don't see how it goes one way and not the other?  Assuming that "with" means the cards that get played along with the attack and not the attack itself (this is confusing, I'm sorry!).

I guess the Overpower rules are what they are, with official examples becoming the rules and thus creating a new meaning that differs from the actual text.  Hell if I know.

Props to anyone who can figure out where I'm coming from with this one!

Acrobatics won't protect you from power cards that are boosted by a Teamwork. The idea being that since the power card is following a TW, and receives the bonus from the universe card, it is now both a power card AND a universe card. So, 'no universe' or 'avoid 1 universe' is a viable defense... but since it's also still a power card, any 'avoid one power card' is also effective.

The same is not true with Allies, though. The Ally itself IS a universe card, but the follow up special is NOT considered to be boosted and therefore is not a universe card attack.


-BHH

[gameplan.exe]

This might be semantics

this entire game is semantics, but let me give this a shot 

My understanding of this argument is drawn from the Meta Rule regarding the X-World location (its last bulletpoint) and Meta Rule #86:

The Attack Modification Inherent
"(Team)'s (Card Type) attacks are not affected by Special cards already in play"

Activated: Whenever the character makes an attack of the specified type.

Rules:

...

• A Power Card attack is an attack made with a power card only. It is not any attack made with a Power Card (such as a teamwork follow up).
  

(86) Power cards that are played as part of a Teamwork attack are still considered to be played as a part of the Teamwork attack (and all icons from the Teamwork card are considered to be a part of the attack). Special cards that are played after playing an Ally card are not considered as part of a Universe card attack. The icons do not join with the Special played.

When a card has the phrase "made with..." then it means any attacks involving the described card.

When a card only specifies a card type, then it doesn't become inclusive with other types of cards/attacks that are made in conjuction.

"No Universe cards may be played against..." would only restrict Universe cards themselves, not their follow ups. Specifically, you could start your Teamwork against some one else, then use the follow up Power cards to penetrate this defense. (I think. This is where I'm drawing on the semantics from X-World).

"Avoid 1 attack made with a Universe card..." would be a Universe Basic/Training with a Power card, a Power card after a teamwork, or the Universe card itself (Teamwork or Ally), but it would not include a Special card that is played after an Ally card (per MR#86).

"Only attacks made with Universe cards..." would be the opposite... It would not stop a Basic/Training, it would not stop a Teamwork or its follow ups, and it would not stop an Ally card attack (although it would still stop the Special that follows up, again, per MR#86).


Post Merge: July 11, 2011, 06:29:26 PM
By the way, I do know that the semantics attached to X-World do differentiate between X-World's Inherent Ability and the Danger Room's Aspect card.

X-World's Power card follow-up to Teamworks are affected by Specials.

When Danger Room's Aspect is in play, then their follow-up to Teamworks are not affected by Specials 

[Onslaught]

I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.

Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.

This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.

[drdeath25]

I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.

Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.

This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.

As a general note to everyone, PLEASE dont post rules answers unless you are positive they are correct. (or at least put "im not sure, but i think that _______ is the correct ruling).

[Overtime]

I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.

Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.

This rule applies to other common situations as well, so it's a good thing to know. For example, if Imprisoned For Science is in play, you can't play an activator to make an attack (even if the attack has no fighting icon). Similarly, if I used an activator to play Robot Mentality from a battlesite, you could avoid it with Keen Senses.

As a general note to everyone, PLEASE dont post rules answers unless you are positive they are correct. (or at least put "im not sure, but i think that _______ is the correct ruling).

but im a judge

[gameplan.exe]

I only skimmed this thread so there might be some more wrong stuff that I glossed over, but one wrong ruling that sticks out was regarding ally/special followups.

Any time you play an action that involves other cards (or is modified by other cards), all parts of it are considered to have the properties that the other cards have. Teamwork followups go through Acrobatics (as mentioned earlier in the thread), but so do the special card followups to an ally. Earlier in the thread there was confusion over this, so just to re-state it: you can play both an ally and its followup attack against a character that has a CD special in play.

and this is despite Meta Rule #86, which is specifically linked to the CD code (the code on Acrobatics)?

[Onslaught]

Yes, because every tournament ruled it this way in spite of the meta rules as far back as 1997. I don't know if the final version of the metarules are outdated or what (they shouldn't be because they include X-Men aspect codes), but this is how it was played.

There are a lot of things in the rules that are outdated or incorrect or just contrary to what you would think the rules say intuitively. They are a good guide, but don't try to take them as the holy grail 11 years after the fact. For example, you could interpret the rules to say that A-Next can't be placed to Marvel Universe. However, this was commonplace and allowed by judges at the last few large sized OP events after the X-Men release.

[BigBadHarve]

Yes, because every tournament ruled it this way in spite of the meta rules as far back as 1997. I don't know if the final version of the metarules are outdated or what (they shouldn't be because they include X-Men aspect codes), but this is how it was played.

There are a lot of things in the rules that are outdated or incorrect or just contrary to what you would think the rules say intuitively. They are a good guide, but don't try to take them as the holy grail 11 years after the fact. For example, you could interpret the rules to say that A-Next can't be placed to Marvel Universe. However, this was commonplace and allowed by judges at the last few large sized OP events after the X-Men release.

This really surprises me, coming from you. God knows I understand about not agreeing with official rules, but if I play by them, I play by them.

As contradictory and retarded as they are, the meta rules ARE the holy grail of 'official' overpower rules, even after 11 years. They are all we have to go on, unless you're playing your own way and using a house system anyway.

Just because you played it as a house rule, or the tournament made a ruling against the meta rules, doesn't make it legal. If you are playing by official rules, that's the rule.

Specials followed by allies are NOT considered part of the universe attack. It's right there in black and white. No confusion or dispute. If you choose not to play that way, that's your prerogative, again I know all about chucking the meta-rules to the wind. But please don't tell people that's the official rule especially when presented direct quotes.

A-next can't be placed to the homebase. Any homebase, that is, except Team Overpower which has the inherent that specifically overrides the limitation. This was ruled in all official tournaments I was in. Now, I can't find the placing rule for A-next printed anywhere, so I'm only going by what was officially ruled in my experience. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means, I'll take it!

Now, your note about activator attacks is spot on. It's one I've always found ridiculous, but Any attack made from the battlesite is considered to have all the icons that were present on the activator. This was a massive matter for confusion back in the day. If the actual card doesn't have the icon on it, then why is it considered to have the icon? The activator doesn't accompany the special, it exchanges for the special. The rules don't say, play the activator WITH the card, they say EXCHANGE for the card. But that's the official rule.

-BBH

[breadmaster]

regarding 'character cannot attack for remainder of battle'

if this card is played, can the character still play offensive actions that are not attacks (eg: draw 3, discard duplicates)?

[BigBadHarve]

regarding 'character cannot attack for remainder of battle'

if this card is played, can the character still play offensive actions that are not attacks (eg: draw 3, discard duplicates)?

Yes. But he's locked from playing anything that would affect the opponent.

-BBH

[Onslaught]

You can play however you want by trying to interpret the printed rules 11 years after the fact, I'll play by the rules that were enforced at the events I attended.

Also, lol at calling Nationals and 4 or 5 regionals isolated incidents.