tied venture question

[breadmaster]

suppose one player ventures for the win, but venture ends up tied

next round, is that player required to venture 1 more card, or can he venture zero, since he's going for the win already?

[Jack]

After a tie, if you cannot venture any cards, you venture 0.

[Judgeone]

Hi all, first official post.
Sorry, Jack, but that answer is incorrect. After a tie, everything stays as previously played, ventures still in place from last battle. Then you Must venture again for the next battle and venturing rules DO apply. IE. If you ventured 2 last battle that ended in a tie, you must now venture at least one more and the opponent gets the extra card drawn, and so would you if your opponent ventured 2 in the previous battle. (3 total ventures drawn = 1 extra card, 2 total = 2 extra cards). Think of it as continuing the battle. 
But I guess I read that wrong, if you have no more, than you are correct. Hmmm... jumped the gun on that one, I guess. My bad, correct answer. 

[Jack]

You do not draw cards based on the sum, you draw based on the current venture.

6.1 What happens when the Venture Total in a battle is tied?

The cards that were Ventured stay Ventured and are carried over to the next battle. In the next battle, each player must still bet at least one Mission card in addition to those that are already Ventured (unless for some reason they have none left to Venture). For purposes of drawing extra cards, only the Mission cards Ventured this battle are considered. For example, if I had bet 2 last battle and the Venture was tied, and this battle I Venture 2 more, my opponent does not get to draw any cards, even though my total Missions now Ventured is four. If I have already Ventured all of the cards that I can, and the Venture Totals are then tied, then in the next round, I bet 0 Missions while you continue to bet as you normally would.

Source: http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20030905204031/http://www.ccgfan.com/opa/faq.htm

[breadmaster]

that's not what i meant

suppose i venture for the win, but can still venture more cards next battle.  am i compelled to venture them, even though i don't gain anything if i win venture

[zippa_head]

I had a situation like this happen the other night with a forum member on OPOnline.

He was venturing for the win, 4 cards in the completed, 1 card in the reserve, and had 2 in defeated. He ventured all 4 cards from completed and the 1 from reserve.

There could have been a situation where the venture could have been tied, if that is the case, and all cards remain ventured where they are, he would have had zero cards to venture for the next battle.

I think this is a situation similar to the one breadmaster is talking about.

Thanks,
Dan

[breadmaster]

i guess it's confusing

suppose i have

5 complete
0 reserve
2 defeated

i venture 4 from completed ftw, but we tie venture.  next battle, am i complelled to venture my 5th card from completed, despite the fact that if i win, it won't actually move any cards.

[Jack]

You legally can't venture more than 4 in this case and my post above holds true.

You wouldn't be allowed to venture 5 in the previous battle either.

[Palatinus]

I think this comes down to a couple of basic things to keep in mind.  1)  When a rule tells you to do something you do as much of that as you are able even if you can't do all of it.  2)  For the most part in Overpower you aren't allowed to take an action that has no effect.

So, for 1) If the rule says the missions ventured stay where they are and you now must venture at least one new mission, you do the first part because you are able but because of 2) where you are not allowed to venture missions if venturing them will have no effect you do not venture any additional missions.  You have satisfied 1) at this point because you did as much as you were able but have to follow 2) because doing things without a purpose just isn't allowed in Overpower.

Also, welcome Judgeone.  If you get a chance, post a little something about yourself in the introductions board.

[gameplan.exe]

I think this comes down to a couple of basic things to keep in mind.  1)  When a rule tells you to do something you do as much of that as you are able even if you can't do all of it.  2)  For the most part in Overpower you aren't allowed to take an action that has no effect.

So, for 1) If the rule says the missions ventured stay where they are and you now must venture at least one new mission, you do the first part because you are able but because of 2) where you are not allowed to venture missions if venturing them will have no effect you do not venture any additional missions.  You have satisfied 1) at this point because you did as much as you were able but have to follow 2) because doing things without a purpose just isn't allowed in Overpower.

Also, welcome Judgeone.  If you get a chance, post a little something about yourself in the introductions board.

I don't think it's true that you can't take actions that have no effect in Overpower. I think, because of the nature of the game, there are several actions that can be taken that have no effect, but you don't necessarily know that at the time (like using a GA on a character who has no Specials available to them, or an AV on some one who has no available attacks, or playing Events that have no effect on the game). Even if you do know it, that doesn't prevent you from taking the action. If you're losing Venture, you can still play an AF, even if it won't win the hand for you.

Having said that, I've never read a rule that says you can't Venture extra cards from the Completed Pile, only that there must be cards in the Defeated Pile in order to Venture from the Completed.

I have been told that I can only Venture 2 cards from the Completed for each Defeated, but I've never read it. For example, in the following set up:
C-3
R-3
D-1
I've never read anything that says I cannot Venture 3 from the top, I've only ever been told that I am not allowed. Also, it would be unwise to Venture 3 from the top, since I'm giving my Opponent an extra card and I gain nothing, even if I win.

The need of at least 1 card in the Defeated Pile in order to Venture from the Completed, makes sense, so that you are not able to Venture 1 from the top and then concede. This would prevent missions from falling to the Defeated Pile, as in the following set up:
C-1
R-6
D-0
Since I am forced to venture from the Reserve in this case, if I want to venture 1 and concede, then it would take me 2 hands to venture for the win, since the following hand I couldn't rescue the Defeated all the way to the Completed (from C1-R5-D1). If I was able to venture 1 from the top, then the next hand I could still Venture 6 for the win in that same, single hand.

Certainly, if there was a written rule about the limits of how many Completed missions may be ventured, then I'd agree with Jack. Venturing more than 4 wouldn't be an option, since it violates a rule; however, as I've never seen such a rule limiting the number of Completed cards that may be ventured (only the rule requiring at least 1 Defeated mission), I think you're required to venture that 5th card from the Completed pile, even though it has no positive effect.

[Palatinus]

I don't think it's true that you can't take actions that have no effect in Overpower. I think, because of the nature of the game, there are several actions that can be taken that have no effect, but you don't necessarily know that at the time (like using a GA on a character who has no Specials available to them, or an AV on some one who has no available attacks, or playing Events that have no effect on the game). Even if you do know it, that doesn't prevent you from taking the action. If you're losing Venture, you can still play an AF, even if it won't win the hand for you.

What I was referring to is that you cannot target a character with an AI if they have nothing to discard.  You cannot respond to an attack with a defensive action that does not successfully defend the attack.  Basically you can't play a card to get it out of your hand or avoid playing another card if there is no result from that card.  What you listed are things that have an effect.  A GA on a character prevents them from playing special cards.  This is true whether they have them or not.  They now have an effect on them that prevents playing specials.  So if you draw cards during the battle and one of them ins a special for that character they cannot play it.  Same with the AV.  Events that don't have any effect fall under the first part I mentioned.  You do as much as you can.  Events are more like game effects than they are cards that you have played.  They may or may not impact things but you don't have a choice in playing it.

[gameplan.exe]

I don't think it's true that you can't take actions that have no effect in Overpower. I think, because of the nature of the game, there are several actions that can be taken that have no effect, but you don't necessarily know that at the time (like using a GA on a character who has no Specials available to them, or an AV on some one who has no available attacks, or playing Events that have no effect on the game). Even if you do know it, that doesn't prevent you from taking the action. If you're losing Venture, you can still play an AF, even if it won't win the hand for you.

What I was referring to is that you cannot target a character with an AI if they have nothing to discard.  You cannot respond to an attack with a defensive action that does not successfully defend the attack.  Basically you can't play a card to get it out of your hand or avoid playing another card if there is no result from that card.  What you listed are things that have an effect.  A GA on a character prevents them from playing special cards.  This is true whether they have them or not.  They now have an effect on them that prevents playing specials.  So if you draw cards during the battle and one of them ins a special for that character they cannot play it.  Same with the AV.  Events that don't have any effect fall under the first part I mentioned.  You do as much as you can.  Events are more like game effects than they are cards that you have played.  They may or may not impact things but you don't have a choice in playing it.

Well that only supports my point. Venturing 5 from Completed, when you only have 2 in Defeated, still has an effect. Even though it's not rescuing any cards, the effect is still such that 5 cards are being Ventured, so a loss means 5 cards move down. Similarly, if I go for the win by venturing 2 from the top, (6C-0R-1D), and my Opponent plays a CF Special, I think I would be required to venture a 3rd from the top.

[breadmaster]

CF!!!

never thought of that.  that would support that you are forced to venture the additional card with no benefit if tied.

btw, this situation did actually come up, not just more of my 'never gonna happen' musings