Rules Revisions

[gameplan.exe]

I always had trouble hitting the level 2 power card attack after the 6Anypower.  Never tried the NW specials...

Real quick, the NW special HAS TO BE the hit that counts up to fifteen points.  It can't be the first hit on their record, then land a 10 and ko the character, right?  Just makin' sure...

It's my understanding that the 5 can come anytime and combine with 15 other points to KO. There's nothing really in the Meta Rules to specify, and the card is pretty open. Hardly anyone uses Sabra or Rapture. Sabra had a good Marvel's card and is a decently cheap dual-grid, but I don't think I've ever seen Rapture in a deck. IMO, let it be the best of the interpretations 

[Hotobu]

I don't think there's anything wrong with interpreting it this way especially if you take into consideration that there are 10 point attacks in the game. It's basically a level 10 attack that counts half toward venture total, and is much easier to block.

In general, I always felt that the DiD rule should have been dropped after Image or XM Edition. They introduced a LOT of ways to ensure a KO at that point.

This I disagree with. Yes there are more ways to combat it, but it's very easy to make a deck that doesn't make use of those new methods. As bad as the X-Babies' inherent is Grunge is far worse.

[thetrooper27]

That's cool with me... and I'm not trying to chase a rabbit here... but the wording on the card heavily implies that it must be the killing attack.

"IF successful, AND character has hits totaling 15 or more..."

Kinda the same problem I was having with Substitute Death... the way the card reads implies there's a specific time to check for the effect.  The card lands as a hit, then you look to the secondary effect.  It's a much better card if it works the other way, and I'm all about that... but it would be a card I would re-word if so.  We could give an NW to a villain in the Ultimate Evil set, and reword it, then we could errata Rapture and Sabra's cards. 

Maybe there is a check each turn that looks to see if conditions are met.  Any meta rules pertaining to this?  Are there any other situations like this that might need to be considered for BBH's revisions? 

[Hotobu]

I still don't understand why you're having difficulty with Morph's Substitute Death special. It's incredibly straight forward. It says "Play in current battle, after one teammate is KO'd." You play it in the current battle, but you can only do so when a teammate is KO'd. Then it goes on to tell you what happens next. There's absolutely nothing to be confused about here.

Also there's nothing about the NW special that implies that it has to be the killing attack. The "if successful" sets the initial condition. Once it's successful the second part applies. The word "and" does not imply order. If you've got a peanut butter and jelly sandwich does it suddenly become a jelly and peanut butter sandwich when you flip it upside down? If I say I went to the bank and the gas station today does it imply I did them in that order? If a person says "I'm wearing socks and shoes" vs. another that says, "I'm wearing shoes and socks" would you think either person is wearing their socks on top of their shoes?

[gameplan.exe]

I think the problem people have is that English is highly interpretive. this is why we have so many synonyms, axioms, and slang.

with Substitute Death, the problem is the phrase "current battle" being in the same sentence as "after a teammate is KO'd" - it sets a very easy association that the "KO" and the "play" both happen during the mentioned "current battle"

the NW card has a similar ambiguity because of the word "if" being where it is, relative to the word "and" - this is the difference between language and math. the way the card is written could be interpreted that the "if" applies to both the "successful" and the "character has hits..." conditions. it would be like this in an equation:

if(successful+character has hits...)
-vs-
(if successful)+(character has hits...)

in general, here's what people need to remember in playing OP- most cards have ambiguity in them because the writers were not skilled at legalese. so, whenever possible, assume that the most opportunistic interpretation is the correct one, UNLESS there is a rule, meta rule, or errata for it 

[thetrooper27]

If only my girlfriend understood me the way ncannelora does.

I'll use your example of gas station and bank, Hotobu. 

Get gas money at the bank.  If successful, go to the gas station and get gas.

Acts as a level 5 Strength attack.  If successful, and character has hits totaling 15 or more, then target is ko'd, regardless of inherent abilities and other special cards.

If I flip them, I can't get gas because I haven't went to the bank for my gas money.

Do you see why it might be just a little bit confusing?   I don't think the pb and j example nor the socks and shoes example are even close to the same thing.  Peanut butter, jelly, socks, and shoes... those are images that don't have nearly the technical implication that a slew of cards do.  The secondary effect triggers upon resolution of the attack.  If it's in the permanent record, it has to recheck every turn of battle to see if there are hits in the permanent record totaling 15 or more.  No other OP card that I can think of does this.  Even changing icons on a multipower card happens upon resolution of the hit.  Secondary effects ALWAYS happen upon the attack being successful, and at no other time... at least not that I can think of, but I'm frequently wrong, I don't mind admitting that, and I very well could be here.  You seem much more versed on the game of OP than I am, and I can't think of any other time that there would be an occurence like this, or even with the Substitute Death.  "Play during current battle, after one teammate is ko'd" sounds to me like you can't play it during current battle UNLESS a teammate has been ko'd.  Furthermore, it also reads to me that you must exchange Morph for the teammate that was ko'd this battle, not a teammate from another battle.  The card seems very specific to me in what it is intended to do.  Coupled with the names of BOTH cards, (Mercy Killing, Substitute Death) I believe that anyone could understand why I read them the way that I do, even if I'm reading them incorrectly.  Rapture isn't delivering the "kill" if she makes the first attack and they continue to play specials and fight, and Morph isn't being the "substitute" for someone dying if they're already dead. 

Come on, big brother... I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about OverPower as you are.  I can tell you've played this game alot, and you have alot to contribute to the discussion of creating new cards that are balanced and fair for the game, and also for some great deck ideas.  All that being said, I think someone of your intelligence can see where I'm coming from, and why I might be just a little confused about the wording on the cards vs. what they actually do.   

[Hotobu]

If only my girlfriend understood me the way ncannelora does.

I'll use your example of gas station and bank, Hotobu. 

Get gas money at the bank.  If successful, go to the gas station and get gas.

This is not a proper interpretation at all of the metaphor because you're separating the clauses that are tied together with "and." A proper interpretation would be, "If I leave the house I'm going to the bank and the gas station." Once again there's no order implied when you tie two clauses together with the word and like that.

Do you see why it might be just a little bit confusing?   I don't think the pb and j example nor the socks and shoes example are even close to the same thing.  Peanut butter, jelly, socks, and shoes... those are images that don't have nearly the technical implication that a slew of cards do.  The secondary effect triggers upon resolution of the attack.  If it's in the permanent record, it has to recheck every turn of battle to see if there are hits in the permanent record totaling 15 or more.  No other OP card that I can think of does this.  Even changing icons on a multipower card happens upon resolution of the hit.  Secondary effects ALWAYS happen upon the attack being successful, and at no other time... at least not that I can think of, but I'm frequently wrong, I don't mind admitting that, and I very well could be here.

I don't want to continue to speak to metaphors because those discussions tend to get away from the initial point, but the point is that the word "and"does not imply order. Two phrases/ideas separated by the word and does not imply which event happens first. As for no other special having that effect that doesn't necessarily matter because new specials are intended to do new things. There is one that comes close though: Acts as a level 6 Any-Power attack. If successful, Target Character is KO'd by next level 2 Energy Power Card Hit, regardless of Inherent Abilities and other Special cards. This card constantly checks for new hits.

You seem much more versed on the game of OP than I am, and I can't think of any other time that there would be an occurence like this, or even with the Substitute Death.  "Play during current battle, after one teammate is ko'd" sounds to me like you can't play it during current battle UNLESS a teammate has been ko'd.

Well of course you can't play it unless a teammate has been KO'd. If everyone's alive who is there to bring back?

Furthermore, it also reads to me that you must exchange Morph for the teammate that was ko'd this battle, not a teammate from another battle.

I don't understand how you can make that interpretation. It says "Play in current battle, after one teammate is KO'd" not immediately after, or "Play in the battle that a teammate is KO'd." There's a comma there for a reason. The comma separates the two thoughts you're reading it as if there's no comma there. It can be re-written as "Play in current battle. Play after one teammate is KO'd."

Come on, big brother... I'm definitely not as knowledgeable about OverPower as you are.  I can tell you've played this game alot, and you have alot to contribute to the discussion of creating new cards that are balanced and fair for the game, and also for some great deck ideas.  All that being said, I think someone of your intelligence can see where I'm coming from, and why I might be just a little confused about the wording on the cards vs. what they actually do.

If I understood I'd tell you. I honestly don't. The way they're written is only ambiguous if you try to force an interpretation. Written as they are they're straightforward.

[thetrooper27]

I disagree.  And that's ok.  There are lots of other things I agree with you on.

[halcyon1234]

(First post from BBH's "imaginary" friend)

Yes, Snow Blind and all its ilk are defensive. If they change how your opponent (player) can attack, what they attack with, or the value of the attack. It doesn't work if you have to target a specific attacking character.

Beyonder:  BBH, did we end up with "Cannot play OPD special cards", or "cannot play OPD cards"?  The latter excludes MP5 and AP6/7/8, certain artifacts, etc.

Also discussed but not sure if its inherent or rules, but Beyonder should also read:
"OPD. May be used as an activator without a special to Battlesite"  Basically, if he's your 13th activator, you don't need a 13th card in your battlesite. Also "grid is... (or grid of last active teammate if he is alone)"

I assume the recycling of BU, Training and DS goes under house rules rather than the overhaul?  What about DS being used to defend self or teammate?

Edits since the forum doesn't allow multiple replies?

Edit @thetrooper:  NW specials only check "if successful". It's a one time check triggered by the hit landing. They would have to have 10+ hits already for the 5 to do anything special.  Otherwise it would read "If successful, target is KO'd when they have hits totaling 15 or more".  Then its an ongoing effect that constantly looks at the character's damage.  It'd be far more useful that way, but it is written as it is written.

Re: Showing Cards: Keeping two separate hands is a nightmare for both players. More often than not, the player will forget its there. Or opponent will forget to count it. Or it'll accidentally get mixed up with the "regular" hand. Or intentionally. What if you have both Ghost Rider, Thor and Morlocks on the team? Do you have your regular hand, plus three separate hands?

Pretty much every single CCG I've ever played works this way. If you retrieve a card with a restriction, you must show it to your opponent. Most CCGs have it built into the rules. Most will print it on the card itself. It's a de facto standard.

A couple others: Again, not sure if these got pruned out or not.

- Infinite Loop: If a player's card causes an infinite loop, that player must chose a positive integer. The action is repeated that many times, and then the loop is broken.  Two examples would be some sort of double-shift loop, or LX special + To Save The World

- Attack: A card is an attack if it is an Attack; targets an Opponent; targets or effects your Opponent's cards, hand, deck, Piles, battlesite, mission or venture total; allows you to concede

- Buff Gambit: What was decided on this?  "If a card played as a Top action is a non-attack that alters how your character or team attacks, you may immediately play an additional attack (even a Top attack), using that benefit. If the attack is defended, the Buff is defended, too. If the attack is successful, the Buff remains in play for its natural duration".  So you can buff gambit Blind Man's Bluff, Team Co-ordination, etc.

- Activator Icons:  More a clarification as to why they don't fuse.  Activators effectively read "Play as a Top action. Retrieve 1 special playable by the Activator (including inherent abilities), then discard Activator to Dead Pile. Playing character must immediately makes an additional Top action using that card."  Or defensively, "Play as a defense. Retrieve 1 special playable by Activator (including inherent abilities), then discard Activator to Dead Pile. Playing character must play retrieved special to defend (or as part of a defense)."

So attack: no fuse, no restriction on attacking with X icon.  Defense: Still no restriction, since the activator isn't actually defending (see rule above about "only the card that defends counts").

- Duplicate:  (again, mostly clarification, since the Meta rule is gone):  A card is not a duplicate of a card placed to reserve, unless that card can be played. A card is not unusable if you have a card, placed or in hand, that will explicitly allow you to use it.  (Everything's A Weapon allows you to keep KO'd teammate specials. A "Draw 3" doesn't allow you to keep a teamwork with no power cards).

- Conditional Effects: Explicitly only against characters. Not against battlesite, homebase, or any Card in play (EB special)

- Order of Precedence: Given conflicting wording, Events always take first priority, followed by the most recent card played to the least recent card played.  "May Not" and "Cannot" takes priority over "may".  (Target may not play specials takes priority over may play any special).

- Parting Shot:  (We never really tested abusing this by just playing as written).  When opponent concedes, there is a single "parting shot" turn. If a card may be played after opponent concedes, or a card allows you to attack after opponent concedes, you may make a single attack during this turn. No follow ups are allowed on this action, and only a single attack may be made.  Thus, if you have multiple cards/characters who can attack, only one can be used. You cannot play a card that MUST have a follow up.  Follow-ups or additional card plays from secondary conditional effects are allowed (?)

There might be a few others, mostly based on meta-rules, can't remember exactly how many we ditched outright.

[BasiliskFang]

so with parting shot -

can you do Wolvie - rage then tracking senses? but no aspect?

[halcyon1234]

so with parting shot -

can you do Wolvie - rage then tracking senses? but no aspect?

This is always a weird one, since Tracking Senses doesn't technically provide an additional attack. It has a conditional secondary effect of fetching + attacking. I would say yes you can do this for that reason-- same reason Captain America's "if unsuccessful, flip and attack" should work.

[BasiliskFang]

i can see the reasoning there.

[thetrooper27]

I'm pretty sure if you get them hashed out and properly worded, the BBH rules revisions should replace the regular overpower rulings.  Thanks for explaining your testplay findings Halcyon1234, and welcome the message board!

[thetrooper27]

Okay, so I can play special cards that give additional effects ofensively in SOME cases, such as Blind Man's Bluff, or a card that provides a +2 bonus with a power card attack, etc.  What is the official OP rule concerning this, and how do I determine which cards can be used this way?

[halcyon1234]

Okay, so I can play special cards that give additional effects ofensively in SOME cases, such as Blind Man's Bluff, or a card that provides a +2 bonus with a power card attack, etc.  What is the official OP rule concerning this, and how do I determine which cards can be used this way?

Meta 35:
"Specials which grant bonuses/abilities to the playing Character (or the playing Character's team) that can be played offensively can be played along with an attack. The attack may not be made with a Universe card of any kind (although the Special and attack may be made as a follow-up to an Ally attack). In the event that the attack is defended, the bonus/ability would be defended as well and would not take place. The attack may be defended by defendeding the numeric attack or the Special granting the bonus/ability."

So pretty much the same thing, except it's in the rules rather than the Meta rules.