renege penalty

[breadmaster]

for any who played tourneys back in the day, what was the penalty for a renege after discard phase, but before venturing is completed?

[Demacus]

Like, discarding a dupe or unsuable after the discard phase, but before both players have finished their venture?

[breadmaster]

exactly

this is a mistake i make frequently myself, and i was just wondering

[DiceK]

Most people just let it slide, if I recall.  I'm sure there are people that would say that is an immediate loss of the round or something.  I even recall people playing specials for characters that were dead, and unless they did it multiple times, I wouldn't make a big deal of it.  Unless there is a reason to believe someone is intentionally cheating.... I'm sure even the best players back in the day did the same thing.  I wouldn't want to win a match because my opponent forgot to discard a duplicate level 6 power card....

[BigBadHarve]

For reference - Larry and I talked about this a few months ago, and at the Peace-Bridge tournament reneges are going to be handled thus:

If an illegal play is made, the player must be called out right away. Once a play has been accepted by both parties, it is now considered a legal play.

If a renege is called from a bad play (dupe, playing an unusable etc), then the offending party immediately loses that battle. The battle ends normally. Discard cards from hand and move venture normally, then start your next round.

If the renege is called because of an illegal deck construction. A judge will inspect the deck. If the deck is proven to be illegal, the match will immediately end and the offending party will take a loss. He will then be allowed to fix his deck for the next match.

In terms of pre-venture, it hadn't come up. But my thoughts would be that anything pre-venture is a grace period as nothing has been staked. So, if you catch that you forgot to pitch a duplicate pre-venture, you can get rid of it without being called on a renege.

But don't consider that a ruling yet, I'd have to confer with the other judges on how to play that - it's simply how I'd lean in that scenario.

[KObossy]

The card in question immediately goes into it's opponents hand and becomes playable by all heroes on opponent's side. May keep if duplicate to any other card in opponent's deck. When card is discarded it is removed from play for remainder of match. Opponent may gleefully show everyone at tournament the card if it kills a hero on the card owner's side.

[breadmaster]

you better believe that's a paddlin'

[Onslaught]

In most games when an error is caught, the judge tries to rewind the game state (within reason) to what it was at before the error occurred. In Overpower, since information about the opponent's hand is the most important thing besides raw card advantage, you can't really back things up. If player A ventured two because Player B had a hand with no duplicates and then in the middle of the turn it was discovered that player B actually should have discarded something, it is extremely unfair to player A. Same thing if you play a teamwork and I reveal something from my hand to defend it, and then you realize you can't make any followups. Under the official rules, the outcome of a renege is for battle to end, the person who committed the error loses venture, other dude wins venture, and other dude also has the option of choosing whether or not the hits to current battle are discarded or go on your permanent record. (Side note, even that I don't think is completely fair. It gives a huge advantage to cheaters, such as intentionally keeping a dupe to keep someone from betting for the win, then getting called on the renege in the middle of the turn. Regardless of whether or not the other guy says "it's fine keep playing" or takes the free venture win for the turn, it has a gigantic impact on the game).

Anyway, that was a roundabout way of getting to the question at hand. Since no information has been revealed, it is really easy to roll back the game state to the point where the error occurred. Worst case scenario is that player A has ventured already, player B realizes he has another discard and has not yet ventured, and then player A goes back and revises his bet. The most I would assess player B is a warning for misplay, with potentially a game loss for repeated offenses throughout the game/rest of the tournament.

[breadmaster]

i agree, the solutions presented seem to be the most reasonable

[DiceK]

I'm for a warning, followed by a game loss.

[breadmaster]

the tournament guide suggests 2 renegs/match is grounds for a loss, and 3/tournament is disqualification

onslaught's point is a valid one though.  i had 4 activators when entropy field came up.  rather than discard 4, it would be in my interest to keep them in hand, forcing my opponent to venture less and then simply take the auto loss.  i would argue this is the same as intentionally taking a delay of game in football to get better position for a punt.

it's not fair to call it cheating when both players know the penalty, and one accepts it willingly.  one way to combat this, would be to have the same penalty apply, +1 venture for winner (and -1 for offendor) for each additional reneg in the hand.  so in the above example, if my opponent ventured 2, and i ventured 1, and i dropped my illegal hand for discard,  he would move 2 missions to completed, plus 3 for the 3 additional renegs.  and i would move the 1 down, and add an additional 3

too harsh?  not harsh enough?

[Onslaught]

If strategic reneging seemed to be a recurring issue, the only thing I can see to solve it would be automatic game loss for a renege. That's really harsh and would probably make your matches go even slower since nobody would want to miss a dupe, but if it seemed to be an honest mistake then the opponent could always choose to just keep playing instead of taking the win.