Apocalypse

[a_noble_kaz]

does anyone else think that Apocalypse got totally screwed in the Power Grid department? I mean, forget about how lame his specials are (Techno-Virus FTL), why is his power grid so crappy? i mean, did TPTB even know who Apocalypse is?

I tend to think Darkseid's grid is much closer to what Apocalypse's should have been: 6 3 8 6

does anyone else have ideas of how Apocalypse should have been created? does anyone use a homebrew hero card and/or specials?

[BigBadHarve]

I agree. 23 points, no 8 and mostly lousy cards.

Still, he can be made to work. I use him from time to time, primarily as a deckbuilding challenge to myself, but I still do it!

I had thoughts about upgrading him... I think I may have gone a little overboard... but I stand by my assessment given how powerful he is in the comics.

Apocalypse: Age of Apocalypse
E -6
F -7
S -8
I - 7

New specials -

Evil incarnate - One Per Deck - negate the effect of any one special played by opponent. Apocalypse may discard this card to the top of the draw pile after use.

Eternal Might - Acts as a level 8 Anypower attack.

Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.

What do you think - too much? Not enough? 

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

I'd argue that your Apacalypse: AoA is too strong. He didn't really display anything in AoA that he hadn't done in the regular universe. If anything, he was a little less powerful - in what we actually saw/read him doing. He really was only as successful as he was because ProfX had died and it had a ripple effect. I'm in favor of changing him up, though. For AoA sake, I see it going something like this:
E- 4-6-7-6
because he never really used Energy in AoA, but he did duke it out with Magneto in that epic final fight.
-
As for adjusting his "normal" grid, I'd say make him a 6-4-7-6 as he tends to use Energy more than fisticuffs in the regular continuity.
+
I do really like the specials you gave him, though.
+
Also, make his AY special remain for game (still up to 8, still not OPD), making him a 6-4-8-6 (or 4-6-8-6) once that's in play. I don't think his strength should be a constant 8 because he's not constantly that strong. It requires action on his part to make himself stronger by changing his molecular structure on the fly (hence the longer lasting AY Special).

[a_noble_kaz]

Yeah, the power grid might be too strong. Maybe. Possibly. But I like where you're going with it! I mean, if anything, TPTB should have erred on the side of "ridiculously powerful, almost so broken there are seventeen meta-rules specifically pertaining to Apocalypse deck-spamming strategies" instead of the "outrageously and prohibitively expensive with no 8 stat and no special cards to justify the expense" side. This is Apocalypse we're talking about. A mutant so evil and powerful he's named after the concept we use to describe the end of the world.

And those specials you came up with are really good! So good, in fact, I intend to make them like right now!

[BigBadHarve]

Yeah, the power grid might be too strong. Maybe. Possibly. But I like where you're going with it! I mean, if anything, TPTB should have erred on the side of "ridiculously powerful, almost so broken there are seventeen meta-rules specifically pertaining to Apocalypse deck-spamming strategies" instead of the "outrageously and prohibitively expensive with no 8 stat and no special cards to justify the expense" side. This is Apocalypse we're talking about. A mutant so evil and powerful he's named after the concept we use to describe the end of the world.

And those specials you came up with are really good! So good, in fact, I intend to make them like right now!

Like I said, I went overboard on the grid intentionally. But then, at 28 points, AoA Apocalypse would be cost prohibitive on a team (except for Ship, making that site more appealing.)

Alternatively, I'd make Apocalypse an intellect character - keep his Strength at 7 and pump is Intellect to 8. But he's a major villain in the Marvel Universe, definitely deserving on an 8 either way.

My alternate for the Eternal Might special was another OPD - Acts as a level 8 Any Power card, may be used to attack or defend. Discard to Power pack if defended or used to defend.

Ultimately, I decided that he needed good non-OPDs.

I'm glad you liked the ideas! I have to be good for something around here.

-BBH

[The Dude]

I'm not so outraged by Apocaylpse's grid as by his lack of usable specials. Sure I can see arguments for moving any of his stats up a point but they are not outrageous where they are.

I too did Apocalypse homemades however to boost him.

The Twelve - Acts as a level 12 Energy attack. If successful Apocalypse or Apocalypse's teammates may not defend Apocalypse with Special cards for remainder of game. (OPD)

Horsemen of Apocalypse - Target Teammate's Energy, Fighting and Strength Powercard attacks are +1 for  remainder of game. Intellect grid is reduced by half for remainder of game. May be played from Reserve. (OPD)

Pestilence - Play on target character as an attack. Attacks made on target character, including Pestilence, may not be shifted for remainder of game.

War - Opponent must discard one placed card of Apocalypse's choice.

Famine - Target Homebase must discard all placed cards and loses inherent ability for remainder of battle.

Death - Acts as a Level 6 Fighting Attack. If successful, Opponent is –4 to Venture.

[gameplan.exe]

Pestilence - Play on target character as an attack. Attacks made on target character, including Pestilence, may not be shifted for remainder of game.

War - Opponent must discard one placed card of Apocalypse's choice.

Famine - Target Homebase must discard all placed cards and loses inherent ability for remainder of battle.

Death - Acts as a Level 6 Fighting Attack. If successful, Opponent is –4 to Venture.

These ^ are perfect!

[Palatinus]

I agree. 23 points, no 8 and mostly lousy cards.

Still, he can be made to work. I use him from time to time, primarily as a deckbuilding challenge to myself, but I still do it!

I had thoughts about upgrading him... I think I may have gone a little overboard... but I stand by my assessment given how powerful he is in the comics.

Apocalypse: Age of Apocalypse
E -6
F -7
S -8
I - 7

New specials -

Evil incarnate - One Per Deck - negate the effect of any one special played by opponent. Apocalypse may discard this card to the top of the draw pile after use.

Eternal Might - Acts as a level 8 Anypower attack.

Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.

What do you think - too much? Not enough? 

-BBH

Yeah, Apocalypse should be super powerful.  Maybe with this build he could have an inherent ability like "May not have a reserve character."

[metaphist]

Horsemen of Apocalypse - Target Teammate's Energy, Fighting and Strength Powercard attacks are +1 for  remainder of game. Intellect grid is reduced by half for remainder of game. May be played from Reserve. (OPD)

That's a great special (as are your others). But, I kind of like BBH's ridiculous grid, so I would combine his grid with this special, and make this non-OPD. At some point, you could have your three 16's up front and boosted with killer Apoc chillin in reserve Rhino, Xaos, X-babies with Apoc in reserve = win.

[Onslaught]

You forgot to give him "Apocalypse or teammate may avoid an attack of 9 or less" IMO.

[Palatinus]

I always liked the fact that Apocalypse has both types of AC specials.  I also think teammate 9 or less avoids are funny because there are also "Teammate may avoid 1 attack."  That's better, so why be impressed by 9 or less?

If Apocalypse was as powerful in this game as he is in the comics or even the cartoon, he would be able to fight a whole team by himself.  And win a lot.

[Nostalgic]

I always liked the fact that Apocalypse has both types of AC specials.  I also think teammate 9 or less avoids are funny because there are also "Teammate may avoid 1 attack."  That's better, so why be impressed by 9 or less?

In looking at Bios cards I always thought that's the point from a game balance/mechanics perspective.  Since you're getting wider tactical use out of the card for defense of the the character or a teammate, the 9 or less avoid is less powerful than all out "avoid 1 attack/numerical attack" to compensate.  I'm just guessing at that however.

If Apocalypse was as powerful in this game as he is in the comics or even the cartoon, he would be able to fight a whole team by himself.  And win a lot.

There's the limits of the ccg. Perhaps a BS or CG special helps...

[Demacus]

I've personally always liked Apoc, and though not a great threat in OP, being an original set villain, (::cough cough DR.DOOM cough cough: he wasn't overlooked in every card game.  In the VS system, seeing Apoc on the other side of the table ment BIG TROUBLE for you if you didn't have any tricks to counter-act his (and said tricks were very few and far between.)  The man did wreck a meta much in the same way Maruaders/X-Babies did.  For a time, almost every deck worth it's salt had Apoc in their deck... just in case.

Back to OP, His specials, before errata/meta rulings, weren't so bad.  Being able to play the specials of ANY FALLEN TEAMMATE for a battle is awesome and worthy of one of the greatest villians to walk the Marvel Universe. Being forced to decide WHICH 1 TEAMMATE he could copy the turn beforehand and then HOPE you got something useful NEXT hand was a major slap in the face.  Yeah, even the way it's worded, you MIGHT NOT get anything next hand that he can use, but without the ruling which changed how it's played, it would be considered a worthwhile option.  Megamorph is a solid 9F, can't go wrong there.  Dual AC's can really screw with your opponent in an ALMOST vertigo-ish way.  AE's are always fun, if not overly practical... I've always been a fan of them anyways.  The ability to shut down your opponents grid is nice, more so if you get to CHOOSE which grid you are shutting down, not to mention with Apoc's BD, the target character can't attack OR defend with cards that utelize that skill type (a.k.a. contains {x} icon.)  IF Cyclops can't use energy cards, that Remove Visor that's stuck in your hand cause you placed your Battle Savvy a round earlier is toast, as is the 7E that you would have combined it with, cause he can't defend himself with that either.

Does he have a lot of VENTURE affecting specials?  No, not really.  He DID have some good specials before the powers that be decided that he/they needed nerfing (directly or indirectly.)  I wouldn't say he's my top 23 point choice, but I also have not snubbed him outright either.  There are many characters who are WAY WAY worse.   A Merciless Conqueror or Cannon Fodder style special would also do him well, but I wouldn't say he's worthless.

I think, ultimately, you have to look at WHY you are selecting your characters.  Are you looking to build the Be-all-end-all deck of OP?  It's been done.  Marauders/X-Babies held that spot for far too long, which also inspired that crappy Dead is Dead rule.  If you are looking to build fun decks that utelize your faveorite characters, try them out.  Put at least 1 of each of their specials into a deck and actually FIND OUT which cards are worth leaving in and which cards are too situational to rely on.  Tourney Apoc is probably going to remain a VS system thing, but that doesn't mean you can't use him in your fun decks, especially since any tourneys out there are pretty much exclusively between all of us at this point.  How many times do you want to sit down across from Spawn, Marauders, X-Babies, Beast, ect, ect... 

If everyone used the lesser known characters a few things would happen
1. There would be a few surprises played on both sides of the field.  (We all know what to expect from Scarlet Witch, but if you saw Carnage on the other side, you'd be wracking your brains to remember if he's a threat or not.)
2.  Everyone might enjoy the game a little more, due to trying new things and not getting STOMPED by the monsters that have been established more then a decade ago.
3. We all might realize that, where yes, homemades can be fun and kewl, we might discover NEW strategies that were never tested properly all those years ago, because some cheap, gimicky characters rose to the top far too quickly.

You never know...  You might find Apoc isn't so bad after all, even if the rules/restrictions of OP kinda knocked him from the pedistal where he should reside.

Side note, I DO like the 4 Horesemen homemades.  Nice touch for a deserving villain.

[The Dude]

MetaPhysist: glad you liked that special. When I designed it I liked it a lot beacuse to me it captures the thing from a comic perspective that I most remember about Apocalypse (i.e. grabbing some low-powered loser hero like Angel or Caliban and turning him into a brainwashed power house) while also filling a major game weakness of Apocalypse, namely being 23 points and hard to build around by bumping up the grid of one his low cost teammates.

[steve2275]

Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.

What do you think - too much? Not enough? 

-BBH

too much (+6 to venture) 

apocalypse (insert) reads 5378