Devourer Of Worlds (DoW)

[gameplan.exe]

In our circle, we don't like unbalanced games. There is no single card in OPL as unbalanced as DoW. I would say that if it worked as simply as POWER LEECH (even "as written" POWER LEECH), and it only discarded 4 cards from a Battlesite, then no biggie. Or, if it could be Negated, let alone avoided.

As it is, this card can reduce many games to little more than this, the way we decide who goes first - cutting your deck to see who cut the higher card.

If I get DoW after you discard your KL, I win.
If I get DoW before you get your GL, I win.

Obviously, that is an exageration, but not by much. Why should I be allowed to use 1 card, playable by ANY CHARACTER, that you can only counter (not even defensively) with 9 people.

Or, you would basically have to use an Any Hero deck, too, and we'd both have 1 wasted card each.

So, in our circle, we have a Gentlemen's Agreement to simply not use DoW. Simply put, a card that cannot be defended just tends to suck the joy out of the game for us.

Where do you stand?

[Onslaught]

1. If DoW didn't exist, you could just throw all your Any Heroes away. There would be absolutely zero point to playing them over a battlesite.

2. Even with the threat of DoW, battlesites are MUCH stronger than any heroes. The versatility, extra defense, ability to create combos/tricks, etc. is extremely powerful.

3. The existence of DoW expands the usefulness of several cards/characters. Battlesites decks are more dynamic and less "sturdy" than Any Hero decks, but you can decrease your battlesite power a tiny bit by running a GL special from the battlesite.

4. Ways to play around DoW

• GL specials
• KL specials
• AI specials
• Gods of Stone, Down But Not Out, GEN13 vs. The Regulators, etc.
• Stop building battlesites with so many specials under them
• Read your opponent to determine when it is in their hand and concede appropriately
• Play smart and utilize your overwhelming battlesite advantage to win before DoW is drawn

Generally, I dislike silver bullet cards. Yet, the dichotomy of battlesites being so much stronger up until the point DoW is drawn vs. the low duping/unusable nature of Any Heroes is an interesting interaction (and is strongly tied to the nature of your deck and personal playstyle), and ultimately it is very good for the game. Any Heroes are much, much weaker than battlesites, so it seems funny to restrict them even further by agreeing not to use DoW. Also, in order to even be able to survive with Any Heroes, you usually have to run a very specialized deck (either with an EE and other defensive chars, or very low special count with lots of redundant stats). If you are running a narrow deck that is able to use Any Heroes, you should probably be rewarded with the big swing in card advantage that DoW can bring.

If you find that "a card that can't be defended" (it can be though, as listed above) sucks the joy out of the game for you, where do you draw the line? If I am running a deck without negates, will you take all the draw three specials out of your deck? If you play a draw 3 and I have no way to defend it, you might suck the joy out of the game for me. If I use Any Heroes and my Guardian Angel is already gone, will you stop using level 8 powercards as teamwork followups to make a level 10 attack? I can't defend those either, so you might suck the joy out of the game for me.

Having different decks that are good and bad vs. varying archetypes is part of what makes CCGs so great, so trying to soft-ban cards in order to keep things more safe/simple is generally a bad idea.

[gameplan.exe]

1. If DoW didn't exist, you could just throw all your Any Heroes away. There would be absolutely zero point to playing them over a battlesite.

This is only true if you can show me the battlesite that provides all of these cards:
AA, AC, AF, AG, AJ, AL, AM, AO (ZZ), AR, BC, BE, BL, BQ, BW, BY, DB, and EN. Even if you conclude that many of those cards are "useless", simply having both a BQ and a BY is something no battlesite can provide. At worst, you can say that playing with AnyHeroes is like playing with an intangible battlesite. Different, but not useless.

2. Even with the threat of DoW, battlesites are MUCH stronger than any heroes. The versatility, extra defense, ability to create combos/tricks, etc. is extremely powerful.

Yes, as long as it's only a threat of DoW. As soon as it becomes a reality, though, you're hijacked. I don't like it when things so powerful are random.

3. The existence of DoW expands the usefulness of several cards/characters. Battlesites decks are more dynamic and less "sturdy" than Any Hero decks, but you can decrease your battlesite power a tiny bit by running a GL special from the battlesite.

I suppose it's a valid point, that I can use a GL from my battlesite. But, that only means that in addition to using one of 9 characters to counter the DoW, I can also use one of 2 battlesites. That doesn't seem to help open things up.

4. Ways to play around DoW

• GL specials
• KL specials
• AI specials
• Gods of Stone, Down But Not Out, GEN13 vs. The Regulators, etc.
• Stop building battlesites with so many specials under them
• Read your opponent to determine when it is in their hand and concede appropriately
• Play smart and utilize your overwhelming battlesite advantage to win before DoW is drawn

- yes, 4 characters have GL specials
- yes, 5 characters have KL specials
- idk, did I miss something? how can an AI special counter DoW?
- yes, Gods Of Stone will help me vs.Any Heroes (as will Starjammers' LS) but this takes my argument about who gets which card first, to a whole new level. Now, I'd have to hope that an EVENT will come in the same hand as my opponent's DoW... doesn't seem like much consolation.
- idk, Down But Not Out seems more likely to hurt my battlesite than his DoW. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.
- idk, Gen13 vs. Regulators seems like it opens up another problem for me - not being able to Negate my opponent's Web Headed Wizard and Power Leech. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

Generally, I dislike silver bullet cards. Yet, the dichotomy of battlesites being so much stronger up until the point DoW is drawn vs. the low duping/unusable nature of Any Heroes is an interesting interaction (and is strongly tied to the nature of your deck and personal playstyle), and ultimately it is very good for the game. Any Heroes are much, much weaker than battlesites, so it seems funny to restrict them even further by agreeing not to use DoW. Also, in order to even be able to survive with Any Heroes, you usually have to run a very specialized deck (either with an EE and other defensive chars, or very low special count with lots of redundant stats). If you are running a narrow deck that is able to use Any Heroes, you should probably be rewarded with the big swing in card advantage that DoW can bring.

I really can't argue for or against this, since I have no experience trying to survive tournaments. I mean, I've certainly won games using Any Heroes vs. my opponent's Battlesite deck. Beyond that, i guess I'd have to take your word for it. My experience says that, generally speaking, Battlesites provide more options and versatility, and so it can be more valuable than AnyHeroes, but I wouldn't agree that Any Heroes are "much, much weaker than battlesites"

If you find that "a card that can't be defended" (it can be though, as listed above) sucks the joy out of the game for you, where do you draw the line? If I am running a deck without negates, will you take all the draw three specials out of your deck? If you play a draw 3 and I have no way to defend it, you might suck the joy out of the game for me. If I use Any Heroes and my Guardian Angel is already gone, will you stop using level 8 powercards as teamwork followups to make a level 10 attack? I can't defend those either, so you might suck the joy out of the game for me.

I meant it literally, when I said you can't defend DoW. No matter what your opponent can do to counter it, it's always a safe play because it cannot be defended - your opponent must use a turn in order to counter it. Aside from the difference that the examples you gave can all be defensively countered, they each fail another point - prolification.
Deck without Negates? I thought that was, like, sacrelige, or something...
Your Guardian may be gone, but let's not forget personal avoids to stop the lv.8 follow up, or the teammate avoids that aren't 9 or less, or the teammate avoids that are suite specific, or the EEs, or simply the DBs from the top of the turn.

Having different decks that are good and bad vs. varying archetypes is part of what makes CCGs so great, so trying to soft-ban cards in order to keep things more safe/simple is generally a bad idea.

I guess I just see this part differently. I'm not arguing that there DoW should never have been made. I'm arguing that they did it wrong (as it cannot be defended - defensively). As such, I think it would be better if it was not created. I guess I should just be thankful that my circle sees it pretty much the same way.

[Overtime]

If this game were made in 1991 I would be the one beating YOU with a life bar.

[gameplan.exe]

If this game were made in 1991 I would be the one beating YOU with a life bar.

i don't know what you're saying, but it made me laugh. So, that's worth something! 

[Onslaught]

This is only true if you can show me the battlesite that provides all of these cards:
AA, AC, AF, AG, AJ, AL, AM, AO (ZZ), AR, BC, BE, BL, BQ, BW, BY, DB, and EN. Even if you conclude that many of those cards are "useless", simply having both a BQ and a BY is something no battlesite can provide. At worst, you can say that playing with AnyHeroes is like playing with an intangible battlesite. Different, but not useless.

Even the worst battlesite has a special distribution that is comparable (and most likely superior) to what you listed, but much more importantly you a) draw them faster, b) get to decide which special to use for a given situation. Not to mention you can always find synergistic effects from a customized battlesite vs. Any Heroes always being a straightforward set of effects.

Yes, as long as it's only a threat of DoW. As soon as it becomes a reality, though, you're hijacked. I don't like it when things so powerful are random.

Ban all one per deck cards, ban all characters except four people with identical stats.

I suppose it's a valid point, that I can use a GL from my battlesite. But, that only means that in addition to using one of 9 characters to counter the DoW, I can also use one of 2 battlesites. That doesn't seem to help open things up.

The main implication is that there are answers to DOW, and you have to evaluate the risk/reward of not using anti-DOW cards. You dislike DOW because it ruins your crappy deck? Play an anti-DOW site. You'd rather have more power/less stability? Well, that's the risk you take by using your battlesite OPD on something that isn't anti-DOW. Is your main complaint that not every site has a GL special? Play chess if you don't want to play a game that has asymmetrical starting conditions.

- yes, 4 characters have GL specials
- yes, 5 characters have KL specials

So pick one of them and use them. Don't want to use them? Then play Any Heroes. Or play a smaller battlesite. Or do one of a million other things people have done in competitive environments to win with battlesite decks vs. any heroes.

idk, did I miss something? how can an AI special counter DoW?

...

yes, Gods Of Stone will help me vs.Any Heroes (as will Starjammers' LS) but this takes my argument about who gets which card first, to a whole new level. Now, I'd have to hope that an EVENT will come in the same hand as my opponent's DoW... doesn't seem like much consolation.

Good players usually place DOW on a turn where they are going first. Wait for a Gods of Stone turn, bet big, and discard it. Or, be a good player and win in 3-4 turns, lowering the odds that they draw DOW or increasing the odds that Gods of Stone pushes you through for a big venture. Remember to breathe. Also, you have to drink water sometimes. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom. If you are tired, you should go to sleep. I'm sure you can figure some of this stuff out for yourself instead of trying to pedantically act like the things I've brought up aren't viable counters.

idk, Down But Not Out seems more likely to hurt my battlesite than his DoW. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

Different decks do different things, make a deck that benefits from Down But Not Out. I obviously didn't mean "toss it in any deck as anti-DOW!"

idk, Gen13 vs. Regulators seems like it opens up another problem for me - not being able to Negate my opponent's Web Headed Wizard and Power Leech. Not to mention the above issue with EVENT counters.

It seems like your problem is that you want everything to be simple/safe/clean, so you can play "the right" way where all of your card choices work the same in any given matchup. A lot of people in Magic hate combo decks because they aren't interactive with the opponent. Or land destruction. Or burn. But if those archetypes didn't exist, the game is simply "my beatdown vs. your beatdown, who has the bigger numbers?" That's not how CCGs work, and your idea of balanced Overpower sounds like "who has the bigger numbers?"

but I wouldn't agree that Any Heroes are "much, much weaker than battlesites"

Play more games and you'll come to the correct conclusion.

I meant it literally, when I said you can't defend DoW. No matter what your opponent can do to counter it, it's always a safe play because it cannot be defended - your opponent must use a turn in order to counter it.

Let's ban JW's because characters without an 8 stat can't defend a followup 8. Ban all cards that do different things. Matchups should all be the same, every time, or I'll just lose my mind!

I guess I just see this part differently. I'm not arguing that there DoW should never have been made. I'm arguing that they did it wrong (as it cannot be defended - defensively). As such, I think it would be better if it was not created. I guess I should just be thankful that my circle sees it pretty much the same way.

I'm sorry for your recent crisis regarding DoW. If I'm not mistaken, the timeline goes something like
1. Your group doesn't use DoW because "it's cheap" (1999-2011)
2. You post a deck that is susceptible to DoW, and when people bring this up your counterpoint is that "it never comes up vs. me because my opponent's don't use it" - laughter ensues (two days ago)
3. Coming to the realization that in "real Overpower" you need to be able to play against DoW, you make a rules thread asking if KL specials from the site can answer a DoW that has already been played, which it can't
4. Post a thread deciding that DoW is a Bad Thing

To me, this indicates that you've only been seriously thinking about how DoW effects the game for a very short period of time. Play more, play vs. good people on OPOnline, examine the card pool more, and you'll eventually realize that it isn't as big of a deal as you think it is.

[drdeath25]

I agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

[rucker73]

ncannelora and onslaught.  I have loved reading a lot of the posts you have both put up on the boards and much respect is given to you both for sharing your opinions and thoughts with everyone.

Onslaught I think that you have a fantastic mind for this game and are clearly a great strategist when it comes to deck building and playing.  Normally I think your posts are insightful and informative, but I must say I am disappointed in you above post, you seem to be insulting and condescending towards ncannelora.

I see the points on DoW, and I agree that the card is too powerful, I play/played a lot and against some very good players (I on the other hand am not such a good player).  What I find is that the better players use any heroes much more often than battlesites.  I am aware of the many ways to stop or counter DoW but my issue with it is that it drastically narrows down an already small pool of usable characters.

I am all for balancing out any heroes and battlesites and I agree that without DoW battlesites are much more powerful.  I just think that DoW is too powerful (or perhaps...  over powered???  

[Dog]

Yeah, with a regular community of roughly a dozen people (correct me if I'm wrong), the rancor seems more than a little counterproductive. 

[Onslaught]

What I find is that the better players use any heroes much more often than battlesites.

Out of the regionals where DoW was available, I believe 7 out of 10 of them were won by battlesite decks. At the last few 30+ person events I attended, the majority of decks in the elimination rounds were battlesites.

[Hot Rod]

DoW on it's own is not too horrible, but when you pair it with Best Laid Plans, and Entropy Field it can be a real pain.

Really you either need to have the counter cards Onslaught mentioned, or really think out your deck.  Having redundancy in your deck is absolutely key here if you don't have GL or KL.  When your opponent draws DoW within the first couple turns you have to bunker down, limit greedy placing, and try to defend your critical chararcter long enough to get some activators on it.

[Onslaught]

DoW on it's own is not too horrible, but when you pair it with Best Laid Plans, and Entropy Field it can be a real pain.

Really you either need to have the counter cards Onslaught mentioned, or really think out your deck.  Having redundancy in your deck is absolutely key here if you don't have GL or KL.  When your opponent draws DoW within the first couple turns you have to bunker down, limit greedy placing, and try to defend your critical chararcter long enough to get some activators on it.

This brings up a good point that I forgot to mention in the "anti-DOW" strategies list:

• Play a big fat battlesite

I mentioned playing a slim battlesite so DoW had a smaller impact on you by the time it was played, but having a bigger site can be useful too. If you have enough activators to actually lay the four hits on DoW while smartly blocking with powercards, you are almost guaranteed to win the game from there. Once DoW is removed, you will be at a massive advantage with a battlesite vs. Any Heroes and should be able to mount a comeback.

I prefer a smaller battlesite, but it's just a matter of preference. I can see from HotRod's Havok deck that he uses a larger amount of activators, so his approach to playing around DoW is a different and equally viable option.

[gameplan.exe]

I'm sorry for your recent crisis regarding DoW. If I'm not mistaken, the timeline goes something like
1. Your group doesn't use DoW because "it's cheap" (1999-2011)
2. You post a deck that is susceptible to DoW, and when people bring this up your counterpoint is that "it never comes up vs. me because my opponent's don't use it" - laughter ensues (two days ago)
3. Coming to the realization that in "real Overpower" you need to be able to play against DoW, you make a rules thread asking if KL specials from the site can answer a DoW that has already been played, which it can't
4. Post a thread deciding that DoW is a Bad Thing

To me, this indicates that you've only been seriously thinking about how DoW effects the game for a very short period of time. Play more, play vs. good people on OPOnline, examine the card pool more, and you'll eventually realize that it isn't as big of a deal as you think it is.

you seem so... i don't know, wound up, i guess.
let me ask this simple question, i think it will be very telling. Do you enjoy playing the game, even if you lose?
Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 01:11:20 PM

I agree with Onslaught on this.

Nccannelora, I really like your style, i want to see you get better (that is, IF you want to. IF you want to just play for fun and non-competitively, thats perfectly fine also).

Download OPOnline and play someone from this forum. I think you could learn alot from a few games, even if you get stomped, just from getting outside the "closed mindedness" of your local circle.

Here's the thing. It doesn't sound like you want me to get better. It sounds like you want me to use more powerful cards. That is not the same thing.
Post Merge: July 08, 2011, 04:11:30 PM
Also, post whatever strategies or counter-decks you want. The simple truth is, there are no other cards in OP that cannot be defended. period. Devourer Of Worlds cannot be defended. This is a truth.

[Onslaught]

"DoW is a powerful card, to the point where my group doesn't use it"

Me: Well, here's how to beat a powerful card....

"Quit telling me to use more powerful cards!"

Telling you how to play around DoW somehow equates to telling you to use more powerful cards? I don't see why a competitive playstyle has to be mean only using the most powerful cards in the game. My favorite deck to use right now uses Venom in it, but there's no way in hell I'd say I'm not a competitive player.

[gameplan.exe]

"DoW is a powerful card, to the point where my group doesn't use it"

Me: Well, here's how to beat a powerful card....

"Quit telling me to use more powerful cards!"

Telling you how to play around DoW somehow equates to telling you to use more powerful cards? I don't see why a competitive playstyle has to be equated with only using the most powerful cards in the game. My favorite deck to use right now uses Venom in it, but there's no way in hell I'd say I'm not a competitive player.

I know all of the ways to "beat" DoW. What I'm saying, though, is that it's garbage that you cannot do anything defensive about that card. All of the people in my circle think so. That's why we don't play with it. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, or get them to stop using it. I posted a poll because I was genuinely interested in how people outside our circle think.

Obviously, if I was going to play for money, or some kind of prize, I'd use DoW (if I went with AnyHeroes).

We don't play for money, though. We don't want to be pushed into using only the best characters and cards. Eliminating DoW works for us. Why do you have such a problem with that?