Power Players and Universe Cards

[gameplan.exe]

So, with this http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/index.php?topic=159.0
incredibly informative piece of behind-the-scenes-type article, Ranerdar and I came up with an interesting idea for Universe cards.

First of all, we like the idea of using BU cards. They're such a fun concept, but they just aren't competetive enough. So, we kick around using other ideas like damage/venture, or DTR, but when we saw what Universe cards were in the old Power Players game, it had us thinking of using a BU for a prolonged effect.

So, thinking this out, let's say I'm holding a dumpster. If you're shooting at me, I can hold this up and deflect or absorb bullets with it. Lots of bullets, potentially. But if I chuck it at your skull, I would no longer be able to defend myself with it.
...
So, What if a Universe card gave you a defensive bonus that was for the "remainder of battle" bonus for defense, but as soon as you used it offensively, it was gone?

1. So, you attack me with Blockbuster (7S), and I use a lv.4 Str PC with my Dumpster to defend, then the dumpster stays right next to me.
2. On my turn I play something like, Tactical Computer (draw 1 card).
3. Then your next attack is Arc Light (7A), and I defend with a lv.5 Str PC (again, using my Dumpster).
4. Then, on my turn, I decide to hurl the dumpster at your noggin with a lv.6 Str PC, for a 9 - and my Dumpster is now out of play.
5. Now, when you play your Harpoon (5E) I have no dumpster to help me defend.

It would make the BU cards particularly useful for defense. It would still cost card advantage offensively, and it'd be a whole lot more fun to imagine!

Thoughts?

[Nostalgic]

Interesting. It makes sense for the dumpster, less so for the crossbow...   

It definitely helps some with card advantage if the BU card could be used more than once.  You might have to modify it so that the BU is returned to your hand if used for defense unless it's is placed to a specific character.  Otherwise the opponent will just attack another character so they don't have to deal with the bonus. I realize if the oppent did this it would still give you the offensive option with the card which may be good enough.

You could also try allowing the BU bonus to count for venture total if an attack or defensive action is successful. This would mean though you're combining two cards for one action (risky), both cards wil have a relavent affect on the battle.  A special that removes the current battle hit wouldn't affect the BU venture total bonus.
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:47:15 PM
I thought I would expand of the BU idea I mentioned. 

Universe cards would count for venture if defended with a special card that doesn't specifically avoid universe attacks or any defense that doesn't combine/use 2 cards for defense.
So if I play a level 5 fighting power card together with the 7 fighting to use BU "machine gun" for a level 8 fighting attack and you defend it with a level 8 fighting power card,the attack is blocked but the +3 remains to count for venture total.  The same would apply if you used an 'avoid 1 attack' or 'teammate may avoid 1 attack' special.  If you block the level 8 universe attack with a tactic doubleshot, training /basic universe + power card, shift the attack with a special then avoid it, etc  the entire attack is stopped and no bonus to venture.    The point is to "completely" block a 2 card attack you have to use a 2 card defense.

On the defensive side if you were to block an attack (like a level 7/8 AQ special) with a BU+3 combined with the 5 power card, the +3 bonus is added to venture total.  If you used that same power card and BU to block a level 4 energy power card combined with a +4 training universe it would defeat the attack but wouldn't add to venture.

To add a different wrinkle to training cards you could allow them to be used twice with a similar mechanic to what you mentioned for BUs.  They could be used either offensively, defensively or once each.  A character would play the attack or defense as normal and then the card would be returned to your hand, or be left on the table to show it had been used. The only stipulation is to use them twice they have to use a different power type for the 2nd attack/defense than the first.   I think it would be kind of cool to have a character attacked twice by a teamwork card and use the two different power types on the training card to make 2 separate defenses before having to toss it. (makes multipower cards more attractive  )

AM specials would still have an advantage as their bonus could be used to council out the BU venture bonus as well as remaining in play.  These cards could even be allowed to add to venture if still in play at the end of a battle if it helps with usefulness.  Another special that may have an impact on this are the AK specials.  Perhaps they should double the venture bonus basic universe cards count for.

I think both of these rules would help the 6 and under characters/teams.  It would increase their card pool so there would be less potential duplication and it would help with defense against the high end attacks.   My thought is the more high powered teams would still be less likely time use this as much because of the 'better' options they already have.  Even if they did it still widens the cards/potential strategy for everyone. 

What do you think?

[gameplan.exe]

I like the concept of trying to balance the 2cards used vs. 2cards used, but it seems extra complicated.

By the way, when I mentioned that the character would get the bonus, I meant specifically that the Universe would then be in play "on" that character, so if that deters your opponent from attacking that character, that's just a bonus, in my view. Besides, in the comic books, how many times did you ever see Deadpool hand his gun off to another person?

(also, I figure if a Crossbow can be used to defend at all, it must be as some kind of deterrent, right? so it still works in context here  )

[Nostalgic]

By the way, when I mentioned that the character would get the bonus, I meant specifically that the Universe would then be in play "on" that character, so if that deters your opponent from attacking that character, that's just a bonus, in my view. Besides, in the comic books, how many times did you ever see Deadpool hand his gone off to another person?

(also, I figure if a Crossbow can be used to defend at all, it must be as some kind of deterrent, right? so it still works in context here  )

That's true.  In that case it seems sort of like expanding the AM special to more characters similar to an 'any hero'. 


I viewed the universe card bonus to venture to be like collateral damage to the other team.  I think it may have been harder for me to explain than it would be in practice.   

[gameplan.exe]

I was thinking about this more, and it seems like it could be simplified further to just say that Basic Universe and Training cards could stay in play on a person for the remainder of battle, for offense and defense. It would make them supremely more playable (particularly since they'd have to be allowed defensive play) and a lot more fun, I think.

Thoughts?
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 07:47:21 AM
I'll go ahead and take this question 

upon a closer look, it might give the max-8 characters too much power. Truly. When I considered "Sinister Creation" for X-man (a card I put in every X-Man deck), I realized that this proposed treatment of Basic Universe cards would be too good, with no negative stipulation to balance it out. And I don't think that "everyone can do it, so it's balanced" is a good argument here, since not everyone can use three different +3 Basic Universe cards, the way a max-8 can.

So, with that in mind, I'd say this whole "bonus stays for battle" is actually too much for the BUs. For the Training cards, however...

This actually seems like a great alternative to the Grid altering Artifacts (Serpent Crown, Super Soldier Serum, etc). Everyone has access to at least 2 training cards that give separate +4 bonuses. With only a few exceptions, it's also only ever going to get you up to a 9 for output (offense or defense) matching it to the "Avoid 9 or less" mojo.

Also, the Training cards make more sense, even, than the Basic Universe cards - in the context of a real fight. If I'm employing some recent training I've undergone, why wouldn't I be able to use said training for an entire battle?
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 10:47:28 AM

Also, the Training cards make more sense, even, than the Basic Universe cards - in the context of a real fight. If I'm employing some recent training I've undergone, why wouldn't I be able to use said training for an entire battle?

Good point.
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 01:47:33 PM

Also, the Training cards make more sense, even, than the Basic Universe cards - in the context of a real fight. If I'm employing some recent training I've undergone, why wouldn't I be able to use said training for an entire battle?

Good point.

Thanks.
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:47:41 PM
I'm so happy that I'm a willing participant in a fun discussion, even if it's with myself! LOL 

[breadmaster]

lol...good stuff

BBHs house rules make bu's and trainings go into the power pack.  that helps a ton to making them more playable.

your method sounds good too...have you done any testing to see how it works out?

[NickW]

   I think one of the easiest and simplest ways to make basic universe cards useful and not hurt card advantage so much is to make it so the player draws 1 card to replace it after playing it.  You run the risk of getting a dupe or an unplayable card, but you have the chance to not take a hit on card advantage just for that one bigger attack or defense.

[BigBadHarve]

   I think one of the easiest and simplest ways to make basic universe cards useful and not hurt card advantage so much is to make it so the player draws 1 card to replace it after playing it.  You run the risk of getting a dupe or an unplayable card, but you have the chance to not take a hit on card advantage just for that one bigger attack or defense.

As many people here know, I play a 'recycling' rule with Basic Universe, Training and Doubleshot cards. Meaning that once played they are recycled into the power pack. It makes them more useful, without tipping the balance. It also doesn't make aspects like MojoWorld or X-mansion redundant.

Playing Doubleshots so that they can also defend the entire team, not just the one character, also makes them immensely valuable. There's a lot of controversy around here about their usefulness, but I love 'em. One of the first things I look for in a team is whether or not it can support a doubleshot or two.

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

   I think one of the easiest and simplest ways to make basic universe cards useful and not hurt card advantage so much is to make it so the player draws 1 card to replace it after playing it.  You run the risk of getting a dupe or an unplayable card, but you have the chance to not take a hit on card advantage just for that one bigger attack or defense.

As many people here know, I play a 'recycling' rule with Basic Universe, Training and Doubleshot cards. Meaning that once played they are recycled into the power pack. It makes them more useful, without tipping the balance. It also doesn't make aspects like MojoWorld or X-mansion redundant.

Playing Doubleshots so that they can also defend the entire team, not just the one character, also makes them immensely valuable. There's a lot of controversy around here about their usefulness, but I love 'em. One of the first things I look for in a team is whether or not it can support a doubleshot or two.

-BBH

For sure, I love DoubleShots too! and not just 'cause my man, Gambit is featured on a couple!

I do like the recycling notion. Also the DTR. I was just drawing on some inspiration from the Power Players info, noted at the top. We haven't playtested, but Ranerdar and I will at some point this week, I'm guessing (even if it's not actually until Saturday). I'll post more thoughts (and possibly my own rebuttles) at that point 

[Oscorp]

Congratulations to ncannelora for reaching 500 posts and becoming a HERO member!!!  BBH you're just 1 more post away!

It seems that you both supply a lot of game knowledge and feedback to this site!

[gameplan.exe]

Congratulations to ncannelora for reaching 500 posts and becoming a HERO member!!!  BBH you're just 1 more post away!

It seems that you both supply a lot of game knowledge and feedback to this site!

THANKS! i don't have nearly as much knowledge as some of the other contributors, but my love of this game is as mighty as Thor!

[Kal-el]

I'd love to see something to tweak BUs. Until a few years ago, my very small group played with BUs as counting for damage. Fixing that error certainly made our characters live longer, but I miss using the cards.

I don't know if drawing to replace or the power pack or something else is the answer, but I would love to tweak them somewhat.

If only they had a 'durability' value. What if they stayed on the player for the inverse of the bonus? Then +3s could only be used once but a +1 could be used three times. I'm not sure if that's still too power, but I think it could work.

[Jack]

Has anyone flirted with the idea of having Basic Universe/Training cards as one-battle stat boosts, similar to Absorbing Man's Molecular Mimc?


It would make a good case to use Power Blast in a deck (finally).

[gameplan.exe]

Has anyone flirted with the idea of having Basic Universe/Training cards as one-battle stat boosts, similar to Absorbing Man's Molecular Mimc?

Yeah, that's another good idea!

[The Dude]

You could make them playable on their own, where the combine is just an option. This way it helps alleviate the card advantage problem.

So for example Jubilee has an Energy Enhancer BU placed. Opponent targets her with a level 2 Power card. She plays the BU by itself defensively 0+3 = 3 so it blocks the level 2 Power card attack.

Or she could choose to take the Hit then throws her level 6E power card plus the BU for a 9E attack on the next turn.

It's not a perfect fix but it would give them a little more flexability, which certainly wouldn't hurt.

And if you decide to let them count for damage as well, now you'd actual have a quite usable card if you combined with the standalone play rule.