Making basic universe, training, and tactic cards useful...(part 2)

[Karmanal of Zert]

Your reasoning is sound and convincing. Unfortunately for me and my all-DC decks I've been fiddling around with lately, there isn't a whole lot of strategic defense to be coordinated. Brainiac has an Avoid and a Negate, neither of which are in my deck because (as I'm sure you know) a character-specific Avoid is more often than not wasted because a different character is being attacked that battle and Brainiac's Negate is VERY unfortunately also character-specific so you run into the same problems. I do have an any-hero Avoid as well as an any-hero Negate in my deck, it probably would be wise to add the any-hero Teamwork Avoid too, but as again I'm sure you know these any-hero cards are all One-Per-Deck, so that's not really something to build one's whole defensive strategy around. I went awhile building decks with no Trainings, and since I decided to take a chance on them again I haven't had any reason to want to take them out. Again I only will have one or two in a deck. I look at it as being guaranteed one less double, though I realize that's not necessarily true. I used to accept the logical reasons for leaving them out but in practice with a card game that inherently has a lot to do with pure, random chance, a +4 comes in handy quite often. I do find your argument convincing and will give this more thought when constructing future decks depending on my chosen characters' defensive capabilities, but for my current deck as mentioned in the above post I'm not sure what I would replace the Trainings with to boost my defense. Any suggestions would be welcome!

[CCTelander]

Your reasoning is sound and convincing. Unfortunately for me and my all-DC decks I've been fiddling around with lately, there isn't a whole lot of strategic defense to be coordinated. Brainiac has an Avoid and a Negate, neither of which are in my deck because (as I'm sure you know) a character-specific Avoid is more often than not wasted because a different character is being attacked that battle and Brainiac's Negate is VERY unfortunately also character-specific so you run into the same problems. I do have an any-hero Avoid as well as an any-hero Negate in my deck, it probably would be wise to add the any-hero Teamwork Avoid too, but as again I'm sure you know these any-hero cards are all One-Per-Deck, so that's not really something to build one's whole defensive strategy around. I went awhile building decks with no Trainings, and since I decided to take a chance on them again I haven't had any reason to want to take them out. Again I only will have one or two in a deck. I look at it as being guaranteed one less double, though I realize that's not necessarily true. I used to accept the logical reasons for leaving them out but in practice with a card game that inherently has a lot to do with pure, random chance, a +4 comes in handy quite often. I do find your argument convincing and will give this more thought when constructing future decks depending on my chosen characters' defensive capabilities, but for my current deck as mentioned in the above post I'm not sure what I would replace the Trainings with to boost my defense. Any suggestions would be welcome!

All good points. DC is kind of limited and definitely got the short end of the stick power-wise when compared to the Marvel sets. JLA was a bit better, but still sub-par as compared to Marvel.

I'd definitely add the Confusion. I'd also consider adding a Battlesite, probably The Outback since it gives you the most defensive bang for your buck when limited to only the officially released cards. Of course, adding a Marvel Battlesite to a DC deck will requie that you use deck protectors, but I never considered this to be a big problem.

Other than that there's not much you can do short of diving into the world of homemade cards. Mine or Bios' both offer a lot of additional solutions to many of the challenges that existed in "official" OP.

Above all though, have fun!

LONG LIVE OP!

[Karmanal of Zert]

I just had a thought that seems so obvious I wonder why I never thought of this before...

Wouldn't it make both BUs and Trainings much more useful if the bonus was added to damage and Venture? Has anyone tried playing like this before?

[Nostalgic]

My brother and I are equally strict in never having a single BU, ally, or double-shot card in our decks, but while he also abides by the strict no-trainings-rule, I do not. Just last night I was able to defend the initial (6) strike from a teamwork attack with a 2 energy which wound up giving me the battle (I still had a 6 or 7 in hand and had ventured more than one) and changed the momentum of the game so that for the first time I finally beat him with the decks we're currently playing with (him: Dr. Strange, Captain Mar-Vell, Omega Red, Morph [MC]; me: Brainiac, Riddler, Lex Luthor, Penguin). He's as strict as it seems everyone else here is about the use of trainings, so I figured I'd just point out that that didn't stop him from getting his butt whooped with a training card. 

Not sure why you don't use ally cards.  I actually like ally cards as I think they allow you to maintain momentum while playing a special that is not attack related like a heal card or a venture manipulation card.

There are several other factors that affect the fesability of playing that training card you mentioned in that situation.  For instance I was wondering, how many cards you both had left in your hands, what had already be played, what had been discarded, what was placed, what hits were already on your characters, was it an early battle or later battle (near power pack/all mission near completion)... By the way, all those various considerations are part of why I love overpower.  If your bro was playing a 7 to use teamwork and the next two attacks, say a multipower 4 and 5,  were +2 that extra card used to block the initial attack might leave you with limited options or defense.  Also, omega red has one of the specials that makes you defend a power card twice so this could also affect your options if it happended to be placed.   My only point is that from a strategic standpoint it still comes down to more resrictive circumstances for when the card is useful.  However, if said cards were allowed to be placed on location cards with a draw to replace... 
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:39:32 PM
Couple of posts I wanted to reply/question...

What we wound up doing is kind of a compromise, and this is where we are today. We use the NEO Cost Capping rules for Legacy Style decks. For any strategy-based decks, the Homebases actually allow you to use any 4 characters from that strat's list of characters, so it's a moot point for those.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's one we can live with, at least for now.

I'm not familiar with the NEO system or their rules for cost capping.  Is there a link or place I can look at those?

Another thing that helps is that in our environment there are actually cases where min/maxing your deck to the minimum number of cards actually makes it less effective. I know that seems counterintuitive, but in actual practice that's exactly how it works out in some cases.

I just wanted to say I think that's GREAT!

[CCTelander]

Couple of posts I wanted to reply/question...

What we wound up doing is kind of a compromise, and this is where we are today. We use the NEO Cost Capping rules for Legacy Style decks. For any strategy-based decks, the Homebases actually allow you to use any 4 characters from that strat's list of characters, so it's a moot point for those.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's one we can live with, at least for now.

I'm not familiar with the NEO system or their rules for cost capping.  Is there a link or place I can look at those?

Another thing that helps is that in our environment there are actually cases where min/maxing your deck to the minimum number of cards actually makes it less effective. I know that seems counterintuitive, but in actual practice that's exactly how it works out in some cases.

I just wanted to say I think that's GREAT!

NEO stands for New England OverPower. It was a system intended to fix some of the issues with OP, that was going around the web back in 2001-02 IIRC. It was designed primarily by a guy named Lee Valentine, and play tested by a bunch of OP Fanatics in the New England area, including one of our old OP Buds who had moved up there. Lee now runs Veritas Games, so he went on to actually create and distribute other CCG/TCGs, including a game called PowerStorm that has a lot of elements from the NEO system.

Unfortunately there isn't really any info still available on the web about NEO. All the sites that I used to haunt are gone, and numerous searches have uncovered almost nothing else.

The info I have is a bit sketchy, but if you're interested I doubt any of those guys would mind if I e-mailed you what I do have. Send me an e-mail to justabgkid@aol.com and I'll get the stuff off to you, if you're interested.

The system actually worked very well, but we had several differences of opinion wrt the premises it was based upon and some of the ways they went about doing things, so we wound up taking our own path.

[Karmanal of Zert]

My brother and I are equally strict in never having a single BU, ally, or double-shot card in our decks, but while he also abides by the strict no-trainings-rule, I do not. Just last night I was able to defend the initial (6) strike from a teamwork attack with a 2 energy which wound up giving me the battle (I still had a 6 or 7 in hand and had ventured more than one) and changed the momentum of the game so that for the first time I finally beat him with the decks we're currently playing with (him: Dr. Strange, Captain Mar-Vell, Omega Red, Morph [MC]; me: Brainiac, Riddler, Lex Luthor, Penguin). He's as strict as it seems everyone else here is about the use of trainings, so I figured I'd just point out that that didn't stop him from getting his butt whooped with a training card.  

Not sure why you don't use ally cards.  I actually like ally cards as I think they allow you to maintain momentum while playing a special that is not attack related like a heal card or a venture manipulation card.

There are several other factors that affect the fesability of playing that training card you mentioned in that situation.  For instance I was wondering, how many cards you both had left in your hands, what had already be played, what had been discarded, what was placed, what hits were already on your characters, was it an early battle or later battle (near power pack/all mission near completion)... By the way, all those various considerations are part of why I love overpower.  If your bro was playing a 7 to use teamwork and the next two attacks, say a multipower 4 and 5,  were +2 that extra card used to block the initial attack might leave you with limited options or defense.  Also, omega red has one of the specials that makes you defend a power card twice so this could also affect your options if it happended to be placed.   My only point is that from a strategic standpoint it still comes down to more resrictive circumstances for when the card is useful.  However, if said cards were allowed to be placed on location cards with a draw to replace... 

I just got into the habit of avoiding Ally cards because I was under the assumption that they must be played with a special card, meaning if you don't happen to draw a special in the same hand, the card is wasted. I showed a good friend of mine how to play and we have been for a month or two; when he made his first deck he put in Ally cards and played one without a special which I thought he couldn't do - but when I actually read the card it said may be played with a special. So my reason for not using them was, in fact, unfounded. I'll probably have some in the next deck I make!

And yeah I would've wrote more about the exact situation, but I couldn't remember! I was really happy I finally won because my brother was using a deck he had designed to make quick kills which was working very efficiently, especially since I had a deck I made mostly for fun when showing friends how to play. I was tweaking my deck every time we played (including putting Penguin in reserve and Riddler on the front line) and I was so psyched that I finally won that I pretty much forgot most of what happened!

[BigBadHarve]

Hello all!

I don't think of the Basic Universe, Training or (especially) doubleshots as useless at all. Though they are extremely limited and to maximize their use you need to plan around it.

An idea I came up with way back in the day to make them usable is this - simply make them recyclable. Therefore, BU, training and Doubleshots get recycled into the power pack, rather than using them once.

After 10 years of applying this simple change, let me tell you it works. Of course, you still have to construct your deck strategically, overloading with these cards won't help your deck. But anyone of them at the right time makes the difference. Especially in power pack.

I used to run tournaments, and it frustrated the hell out of me all the little details that could be tweaked to truly make this game dynamic. Alas.

Anyway. My two cents.

-BBH

[CCTelander]

Hello all!

I don't think of the Basic Universe, Training or (especially) doubleshots as useless at all. Though they are extremely limited and to maximize their use you need to plan around it.

An idea I came up with way back in the day to make them usable is this - simply make them recyclable. Therefore, BU, training and Doubleshots get recycled into the power pack, rather than using them once.

After 10 years of applying this simple change, let me tell you it works. Of course, you still have to construct your deck strategically, overloading with these cards won't help your deck. But anyone of them at the right time makes the difference. Especially in power pack.

I used to run tournaments, and it frustrated the hell out of me all the little details that could be tweaked to truly make this game dynamic. Alas.

Anyway. My two cents.

-BBH

Well, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I pretty much stand by my original assessment.

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that if you took 2 decks that were equal in every other respect, except that one contained BU, Training, or DS Cards, and both were being played by players of relatively equal skill, that the deck without them would win the overwhelming majority of games.

Around here we just don't have any interest in resurrecting them from their, IMO well-deserved grave.

However, like I've said before, if anyone DOES like them, and thinks they can create House Rules that make them more effective, great! It ain't my business to be telling others how to play OP or have fun with it, and I fully support anyone doing whatever they think will keep OP fun and exciting for them. We're all big kids now and can make these kinds of decisions on our own!

LONG LIVE OP!
Post Merge: July 22, 2011, 04:39:44 PM

Hello all!

I don't think of the Basic Universe, Training or (especially) doubleshots as useless at all. Though they are extremely limited and to maximize their use you need to plan around it.

An idea I came up with way back in the day to make them usable is this - simply make them recyclable. Therefore, BU, training and Doubleshots get recycled into the power pack, rather than using them once.

After 10 years of applying this simple change, let me tell you it works. Of course, you still have to construct your deck strategically, overloading with these cards won't help your deck. But anyone of them at the right time makes the difference. Especially in power pack.

I used to run tournaments, and it frustrated the hell out of me all the little details that could be tweaked to truly make this game dynamic. Alas.

Anyway. My two cents.

-BBH

Oh, welcome to the boards!

[BigBadHarve]

Well, I don't mean to be argumentative, but I pretty much stand by my original assessment.

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that if you took 2 decks that were equal in every other respect, except that one contained BU, Training, or DS Cards, and both were being played by players of relatively equal skill, that the deck without them would win the overwhelming majority of games.

Around here we just don't have any interest in resurrecting them from their, IMO well-deserved grave.

However, like I've said before, if anyone DOES like them, and thinks they can create House Rules that make them more effective, great! It ain't my business to be telling others how to play OP or have fun with it, and I fully support anyone doing whatever they think will keep OP fun and exciting for them. We're all big kids now and can make these kinds of decisions on our own!

LONG LIVE OP!

You'll get that kind of response for many cards. I occasionally use the draw 1, do not discard duplicate cards. Many players think 'what's the point?'  I use them mainly to stall, if I don't want to throw an attack, but want to see what my opponent will do next. They have their uses from time to time.

The goal with BUs, doubleshots and training was to make them more appealing, but not overpower (pardon the pun) them so you HAD to use them, especially for players who didn't like them.

But for the record, we actually did that experiment - two identical decks with two relatively equal players. (I'd like to think that I'm a little better than my chum, but our track record is pretty equal) The decks using the basic universe or doubleshots generally had more wins (we tested all separately, not all at once, using the recycling rule.) especially in games that reached power pack. The bonuses made all the difference at that stage of the game.

OH! And doubleshots are capable of defending the whole team, not just the character playing the card. That too makes a HUGE difference.

Regarding doubleshots, the part that makes them tricky to use is that ideally, you need a dual suit deck with a third off-stat no less than 4. All of your level 4 and 3 power cards need to be in that stat. Making a combination of characters to fully utilize the DS cards is the hard part. But if you can then it's worth tossing one or two in. (More worthwhile if they're recyclable.) But I don't usually build teams around a pathological need to use my Doubleshots. I look at the grids, and if they support it, I go for it. The Avengers Mansion makes particularly good use of Doubleshots. The dual suit grids allow for it and the homebase makes them very useful defensively.

I don't like the idea of any card being sent to it's grave, (not even Vertigo which must DIE... *ahem*), but just made more balanced. Especially with a game that has no more official cards coming out. Ever.     *sigh*  The more playable the existing cards, the better.

Oh, welcome to the boards!

Thanks!!!   

It's been years since I've been able to talk OverPower with anyone other than my ONE playing partner. Now, if only we were all in the same city and could get some quality games in.

-BBH

[Karmanal of Zert]

Welcome, BBH! The idea of recycling BUs and Trainings in the Power Pack sounds like it would make a big difference if you actually get to the point in the game were you're playing with your PP (that's what she said), but aren't the cards still more of a hindrance than a help while your still going through your deck? How many of those do you usually put in a deck, and how many cards total do you usually put in a deck?

[BigBadHarve]

Welcome, BBH! The idea of recycling BUs and Trainings in the Power Pack sounds like it would make a big difference if you actually get to the point in the game were you're playing with your PP (that's what she said), but aren't the cards still more of a hindrance than a help while your still going through your deck? How many of those do you usually put in a deck, and how many cards total do you usually put in a deck?

Hey, thanks!

Like any card, they're useful if used right. Everything in moderation, as they say.

I never use all three types in the same deck, and of course I never overload them. Training cards I generally only use if I've got the X-babies or am using Concrete Jungle (A couple of characters with a '5' in the same stat might warrant a training in the deck. In which case I put one for the babies or two for the jungle. Of course in that situation I don't bother with Doubleshots or BUs.

For Basic universe cards, I use 2 at most. Usually one. I'll put a second one if every character can use both.

Doubleshots I only use on dual suit decks. If they are suitable for a deck, then again, 2 at absolute most.

I do find they come in handy even before power pack. That basic universe is great against someone holding on to that beast activator, thinking he's going to save a guy using Acrobatics. Or placing it down on a key character for a little extra defense. Doubleshots are great for a nice little two icon sneak attack, usually fatal to an already injured character. 

For general deckbuilding, I like to keep things lean:

3 of each level Power Card.
One of each usable teamwork.
10 - 12 Activators (of course it depends on the site)
OR: 10 Any Heroes
Complement of Character specials really depends on what I'm going for. But I rarely duplicate unless it's a crunchy hit, or a good defensive card.
2 - 3 events
An ally or two
6+3 Basic U (And possible 7+3) OR: Doubleshot 
Maybe an artifact, again depending on the type of deck.


What are your deckbuilding methods?

-BBH

[CCTelander]

I don't like the idea of any card being sent to it's grave, (not even Vertigo which must DIE... *ahem*), but just made more balanced. Especially with a game that has no more official cards coming out. Ever.     *sigh*  The more playable the existing cards, the better.

As far as the BU, Training and DS cards goes, you seem to have found something that works for you, which is great.

On the no new cards thing, well, you should check out Bios' homemade cards and mine as well. There are PLENTY of new cards, and creative new ideas floating around to keep OP alive and well for at least another 10 years!

Oh, welcome to the boards!

Thanks!!!   

It's been years since I've been able to talk OverPower with anyone other than my ONE playing partner. Now, if only we were all in the same city and could get some quality games in.

-BBH

Talking OP is almost as fun as playing it! Too bad there's no way to get some kind of unofficial quasi tournament circuit going. It would be a kick but I doubt there are enough players left for it to be feasable.

[Karmanal of Zert]

For general deckbuilding, I like to keep things lean:

3 of each level Power Card.
One of each usable teamwork.
10 - 12 Activators (of course it depends on the site)
OR: 10 Any Heroes
Complement of Character specials really depends on what I'm going for. But I rarely duplicate unless it's a crunchy hit, or a good defensive card.
2 - 3 events
An ally or two
6+3 Basic U (And possible 7+3) OR: Doubleshot 
Maybe an artifact, again depending on the type of deck.


What are your deckbuilding methods?

-BBH

As I imagine yours do, my deckbuilding methods are always changing. Right now here's the balance I'm currently enjoying:

4 of each Power Card (usually one type for all my 5-8 and a mix of off-types and multis for 1-4)
5 Teamwork cards (3-4 of the deck's main type, 1-2 of an off-type, usually 2 if the off-type gives bonuses to the deck's main type and/or it can be used by multiple characters)
1 Training
about 5 Any-Character
1-2 events
When there's a special I really like, say a 5 for attack or defense, or a 6 attack if successful opponent -4 to Venture total, a 7 attack, I tend to be rather liberal and throw in 3. Most specials I put in only one of, but I usually pick people with specials I like (obviously).

Lately I've been working with all-DC decks so I haven't gotten much into location cards yet, but my brother has all of them and I'm anxious to begin experimenting!

[BigBadHarve]

As I imagine yours do, my deckbuilding methods are always changing. Right now here's the balance I'm currently enjoying:

4 of each Power Card (usually one type for all my 5-8 and a mix of off-types and multis for 1-4)
5 Teamwork cards (3-4 of the deck's main type, 1-2 of an off-type, usually 2 if the off-type gives bonuses to the deck's main type and/or it can be used by multiple characters)
1 Training
about 5 Any-Character
1-2 events
When there's a special I really like, say a 5 for attack or defense, or a 6 attack if successful opponent -4 to Venture total, a 7 attack, I tend to be rather liberal and throw in 3. Most specials I put in only one of, but I usually pick people with specials I like (obviously).

Lately I've been working with all-DC decks so I haven't gotten much into location cards yet, but my brother has all of them and I'm anxious to begin experimenting!

DC gets a lot of flack for being a crappy expansion (and that's not far off...) but there are some decent underused characters to come out of it.

Wonder Woman certainly isn't lacking, and Green lantern is pretty good. As are The Ray and The Flash. I admit to a soft spot for Trickster's 'Shell Game' special. If only they'd gotten Superman and Batman right... *sigh*

-BBH

[Karmanal of Zert]

Yeah all those guys you mentioned definitely were way above-par compared to what we were used to from the Batman/Superman set. The other good news with the JLA set is that numerous characters who got screwed in the special-power department in the original set got really strong OPDs in the second.