Committee Discussion topic #1: The Duration Meta Rule

[BigBadHarve]

Might as well get this one started.

Since it was already discussed in our previous conversation, I figure this is a good one to get going.

The duration meta rule:

Meta #145: Specials that do not indicate their duration by their game text should be considered Game lasting duration if they are One Per Deck and Battle lasting duration if they are non-OPD. Specials with instant effects are instant duration regardless.


The problem/reason we need to address it is: It only applies selectively to some cards, not all cards.

Proposed Change: Apply it as a blanket rule to ALL cards. Add a line about cards that state they last 'until <fill in requirement>' counting as a 'duration.'

Why the change: A consistent rule that's easy to apply based on actual card text.

What this would affect:

Certain cards would become game lasting cards, despite being non-OPD.

Examples:

EB specials - (Brood Spawn, Allies from the Deep) would last until hit, not for only one battle.
KC specials - (Mole Man Social outcast) would last until the printed condition is met, and not be discarded at the end of battle.
BE specials - (Blood Hunt, Urban Hunters) would become game lasting effects if they are OPD.
EC specials - (Shapeshift) would become game lasting specials instead of battle lasting specials.

Note: The errata on Maverick's Freelance spy should stand, so the card is considered to retain the phrase 'for remainder of battle.'


Thoughts?

-BBH

[Palatinus]

I have a problem with the duration rule applying to artifacts.  There are only 5 non-OPD artifacts.  Of those, 1 states that it is game-lasting, 1 removes itself immediately, 1 cannot be used ever if it is only battle-lasting so must be game-lasting even though it is non-OPD and doesn't have a stated duration.  The other 2 both have a cost associated with their use so can't really be abusive.

[BigBadHarve]

Yes.

One of the reasons for the duration rule in the first place was to nerf the image inducer.

So, in applying the meta rule as a blanket to specials only - we'd need another rule for artifacts.

As it stands, Linkstone and Avenger's ID are pretty weak as battle lasting artifacts, and a game lasting non-OPD image inducer can be pretty abusive, despite the cost to use it.

Well, we have a couple of options to consider:

1. Apply the duration as a blanket to all cards, as proposed. Making the rule simple will boost some cards and diminish others, there's no way around that. It will likely happen again as we discuss other adjustments.

2. Apply the Duration rule to specials only, deal with Artifacts at another time as a separate ruling.

3. Errata.

I'm loathe to add errata, when the purpose of this is committee is to simplify. But applying the duration rule to ALL cards and adding an errata to Linkstone and Avenger's ID to make them game lasting would solve it.


-BBH

[Palatinus]

One of the reasons for the duration rule in the first place was to nerf the image inducer.

So, in applying the meta rule as a blanket to specials only - we'd need another rule for artifacts.

Let's say you wanted to abuse the image inducer.  You could put three in your deck so that you could have one on each front line character.  You are limited to the ability to play the card by stats so you could only include characters that this combination would work on.  Second, let's say you're shifting all your opponent's attacks around.  It's not granting you additional defense so you still will have to deal with the damage and venture.  Additionally, your cards are going to the dead pile.  This means that 1.  Your power pack is going to be very lacking and 2.  You will be getting to the power pack fairly quickly.  Thirdly, there are cards for dealing with tactic and artifact cards so that if the Image Inducer did become abusive.  That would mean that an Image Inducer deck was just another strategy that people would have to consider when deck building.  If it is limited and counter-able why does it need to be nerf-ed?

Alternatively, don't apply the duration rule to Aftifacts, make it OPD, leave it battle-lasting.  I think the Image Inducer should be play-tested though.  Let someone make the most abusive Image Inducer deck they can and prove it beats any deck most of the time.

[BigBadHarve]

I've seen a few image inducer based decks. Though it was a long time ago before the Nerf. They were pretty infuriating. A permanent image inducer on Grunge or the X-babies made all the difference in some cases.  You're not using it to shift all attacks, only key ones. That's all it takes sometimes.

I tend to agree with you - open the options and let come what may. The more game-winning strategies there are, the better. But the trick is to not have one strategy dominate. If there are always multiple counter-strategies balance will be maintained.

-BBH

[Palatinus]

I've seen a few image inducer based decks. Though it was a long time ago before the Nerf. They were pretty infuriating. A permanent image inducer on Grunge or the X-babies made all the difference in some cases.  You're not using it to shift all attacks, only key ones. That's all it takes sometimes.

I tend to agree with you - open the options and let come what may. The more game-winning strategies there are, the better. But the trick is to not have one strategy dominate. If there are always multiple counter-strategies balance will be maintained.

-BBH

But even with Grunge or X-babies, there are plenty of cards that will KO them regardless of their IA or cards that remove IA's entirely.  And again, shifting the attack won't win the venture.  I do think there are plenty of ways to handle Image Inducer without changing the cards or making erratta.

Putting that aside though, applying the duration rule to all specials without exception seems like a good idea, but I have a question about that.  With the old way it was used or the new, you are effectively adding the words "for the remainder of battle" or "for the remainder of game".  In the past has this allowed KL specials or other cards that affect cards that affect the remainder of battle or game to affect these cards?

[BigBadHarve]

Yes, there are plenty of cards that can kill them, but if you are able to selectively absorb the ineffective hits, you leave plenty of options for defending the effective ones.

As for your question - officially under the current rules it does NOT add the text, therefore KL specials do not affect cards like that unless the text is printed. It's a fair point though and one we should address.

I personally think no, we should stick to them 'as written'. The Duration meta rule is simply a reference point for when a card without a printed duration comes into play. Not a mass errata for all such cards.

-BBH

[Palatinus]

Well, I'm still in favor of a game lasting Image Inducer.  The abuse that has been listed seems like it's not really abuse and just a valid strategy.  It takes setup, multiple cards, luck, and limits other choices.  It can be countered and even if it isn't it still won't win a game by itself.  In that regard there is nothing that makes it stand out as an abuse any more than any other trick that can be pulled off in the course of a game.

On the issue of the "remainder of battle/game" text and KL cards, I agree that a mass errata of cards affected by the duration rule would be counter-productive.  I do think addressing how the KL cards are played is worth examining.  At the moment they are not actually being played as written.  They are being played as inferred.  What I mean by that is that they have the "remainder of battle/game" text in quotes.  It is thus inferred that they affect cards with that text written on them.  If the duration rule states that cards with no printed duration remain in play for the remainder of the battle or the game based on being OPD or non-OPD then they do "affect the 'remainder of the battle' or the 'remainder of the game.'" as the KL specials state.  They are actually doing that whether they say they are or not.  I think a more intuitive way to play the card would be to play it to remove all such cards because both players must know that the cards are either battle or game lasting.  Because they must have this knowledge there is no need for further clarification.  If a card in play affects the remainder of the game or battle it is removed as per the card text.

[gameplan.exe]

I'd like to weigh in a few points here...

First, when the Duration Rule was put in place with cards like Image Inducer and the KC Specials in mind, was that before or after Dead Is Dead?

Second, with or without a blanket ruling on the Duration Rule, applying to OPD and non-OPD cards, I don't see anything that should make Image Inducer a game-lasting effect. Even before the Duration Rule, I'm not sure how anyone came to the conclusion that it should remain in play for the whole game, since it doesn't make any reference to how long it can remain in play... In fact, just based on the wording of the card, it seems like you could make the argument that it's only good for 1 attack... with the other non-OPD Artifacts, it seems like they're seldom used and limited in their usefulness anyway. I guess it'd be helpful if they were game-lasting, but again, the argument could be made that they're one-time-use, only, and don't actually have any duration either way.

Third, I do not think that the use of KL Specials should change. For example, they are officially ineffective against KC-Specials and I think they should remain that way. I think the most intuitive interpretation of the KL-Specials is that they only affect other Specials that include the actual quoted text. That's why there are quotes. If there were no quotes, that'd be quite a different story, but as it's written, I think it's expressly only intended to affect cards that literally contain those words. I don't want to see KL's become pseudo negates. Otherwise, you're essentially creating an errata for the KL cards, I think.

I think 

[BigBadHarve]

I'd like to weigh in a few points here...

First, when the Duration Rule was put in place with cards like Image Inducer and the KC Specials in mind, was that before or after Dead Is Dead?

Simultaneously, as far as I remember.

Second, with or without a blanket ruling on the Duration Rule, applying to OPD and non-OPD cards, I don't see anything that should make Image Inducer a game-lasting effect. Even before the Duration Rule, I'm not sure how anyone came to the conclusion that it should remain in play for the whole game, since it doesn't make any reference to how long it can remain in play... In fact, just based on the wording of the card, it seems like you could make the argument that it's only good for 1 attack... with the other non-OPD Artifacts, it seems like they're seldom used and limited in their usefulness anyway. I guess it'd be helpful if they were game-lasting, but again, the argument could be made that they're one-time-use, only, and don't actually have any duration either way.

I think one way or the other, whether we want artifacts to remain for the game or the battle, it should be discussed in another thread/proposal.

The goal of this forum was to clarify and adjust the rules so they are simple and consistent. As it stands, a shift to make the Duration rule a blanket application doesn't change artifacts in any way from how they are currently played. They already adhere to the meta rule. All it does is adjust the way many special cards are played.

The impact on artifacts is worth a discussion, but has little bearing on the impact of the Duration Rule.

Third, I do not think that the use of KL Specials should change. For example, they are officially ineffective against KC-Specials and I think they should remain that way. I think the most intuitive interpretation of the KL-Specials is that they only affect other Specials that include the actual quoted text. That's why there are quotes. If there were no quotes, that'd be quite a different story, but as it's written, I think it's expressly only intended to affect cards that literally contain those words. I don't want to see KL's become pseudo negates. Otherwise, you're essentially creating an errata for the KL cards, I think.

Also agreed. Again, even if we want to discuss such a change, I think that should be its own thread.

The real question for this thread is - can anyone think of any way where applying the Duration rule as a blanket will imbalance the game in any way, or create confusion?

Use of Artifacts remains unchanged by this rule. As far as KL specials go, a line in the wording clearly stating that the specials are NOT considered to bear the 'text' should be sufficient to put that question to rest should it arise.

Further thoughts?

-BBH

[gameplan.exe]

So, i've gone back and looked at, I think, literally every OPD Special (at least per the checklist on Jack's sight). It seems to me that, upon more careful consideration, all of the OPD Specials give some duration or another (the only exception seemed to be the BF-Special, increasing hits to K.O. to 30, which seems like it's indefinite). It seems to me that the whole OPD/non-OPD issue is almost moot.

------------------------BE:
The BE Specials all say "the battle" and the use of the word "the" seems to indicate that it's singular. It's the difference between,
"<Character> may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded the battle. Opponent may defend."
and simply saying,
"<Character> may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded. Opponent may defend."
that is to draw the definition and ask, does the word "the" actually mean "this"? Or does "the" actually mean "a"?

The other point of clarification on the BE Specials is to say that they would have a lasting effect beyond the current battle, if the opponent does not concede. For example, if Carnage plays his BE, and down the line Carnage then concedes the battle, does the BE stay out, since it has not yet been effective? In otherwords, is the "after opponent has conceded the battle" actually the duration? Or what if Carnage plays the BE, then the battle goes down and his opponent doesn't actually concede, but simply loses the Venture in the end?

------------------------ EZ:
This one also seems to have it's duration printed on the card. The only indication that there even is a duration involved is the fact that it says, "in the next battle" and that it's affecting a character. But, the wording it uses seems to indicate a singular battle. It doesn't seem open-ended to me. It's the difference between saying,
"Play in the current battle. <Character's> [type] and [type] ratings are increased to 7 in the next battle."
versus saying
"Play in the current battle. <Character's> [type] and [type] ratings are increased to 7 after this battle."

I'm not saying that the EZ should not have a game-lasting effect, but that draws my attention to 2 similarly worded OPDs...

------------------------ HS:
"Play in current battle. Do not discard duplicates in next battle."
Like the EZ card, the indication of duration is that the effect will not take place in the current battle, but in (at least) the subsequent battle. If anything, it seems like the HS card is a little more open-ended than the EZ card, since it removed the word "the" from "in the next battle." - now again, i'm not advocating that HS should be a game-lasting card, but it seems awfully similar to the wording on the EZ cards... and then there's this:

------------------------ LH:
"Play during battle. Next battle <Character> may Venture up to 4 Mission cards with no penalty. May not Venture more than 4 Mission cards."
It's pretty much the exact same issue as the HS card presents...

-------------------------
The other card codes that were brought up were the KC and EB cards. To me, these already have clearly defined durations in them. They say pretty clearly:

EB: until this Special is attacked
(except XM edition versions, which state "remainder of battle" maybe an indication of change to the Duration ruling?)

KC: until <Character> is K.O.'d or cannot be attacked.

SUMMARY:
It seems to me that we don't need the OPD/non-OPD definition. We just need to clarify that these lasting effects have durations on them.
It seems that the EB/KC cards should go well beyond 1 battle, as applicable.
It seems (to me, at least) that the BE Specials should also last until the Opponent actually concedes, regardless of the OPD versions or Wolverine's version. - BUT, that once the opponent concedes and the Character makes their attack, the Special would then be discarded -
It seems like the EZ Specials have a duration limited to the next battle (as would the HS and LH cards)

thoughts?

(btw, I couldn't think of any non-OPD specials that have undefined durations, if we consider that EB/KC have durations printed)

EDIT:

More evidence regarding the EZ/HS/LH would be the CL coded specials. Their duration surely seems limited to the next battle, regardless of the fact that they are non-OPD.

[Nostalgic]

Certain cards would become game lasting cards, despite being non-OPD.
EB specials - (Brood Spawn, Allies from the Deep) would last until hit, not for only one battle.
KC specials - (Mole Man Social outcast) would last until the printed condition is met, and not be discarded at the end of battle.
BE specials - (Blood Hunt, Urban Hunters) would become game lasting effects if they are OPD.
EC specials - (Shapeshift) would become game lasting specials instead of battle lasting specials.
Note: The errata on Maverick's Freelance spy should stand, so the card is considered to retain the phrase 'for remainder of battle.'

I thought our default setting here was following the text of the card. With that in mind I think despite being a OPD the Supergirl EZ has to be battle lasting if we're going by printed text and our interpretation of the "Duration Rule" is only to clarify a card when the duration is unclear.  How else do we square Supergirl's special with a Hydra's  (AY) special that has the same stat increase affect, but specifically states 'for remainder of game' as opposed to the (EZ) saying 'next battle' ?

The other point of clarification on the BE Specials is to say that they would have a lasting effect beyond the current battle, if the opponent does not concede. For example, if Carnage plays his BE, and down the line Carnage then concedes the battle, does the BE stay out, since it has not yet been effective? In otherwords, is the "after opponent has conceded the battle" actually the duration? Or what if Carnage plays the BE, then the battle goes down and his opponent doesn't actually concede, but simply loses the Venture in the end?

I was under the impression that the BE special must be played with the attack after the opponent has conceded.  I didn't think it could be played at any point during the battle 'in case' the opponent conceded.   If the word 'may' is the issue what about a card like Quicksilver's marvels (CA) special? Could he play that at anytime and once hits actually get to the characters' permanent records switch them at will?

[gameplan.exe]

I was under the impression that the BE special must be played with the attack after the opponent has conceded.  I didn't think it could be played at any point during the battle 'in case' the opponent conceded.   If the word 'may' is the issue what about a card like Quicksilver's marvels (CA) special? Could he play that at anytime and once hits actually get to the characters' permanent records switch them at will?

maybe that's how, but I've never played it that way. I've always played it just like Shadowhelmet, which is not reactionary. So, i've only played it up-front. Now, it's worthwhile to say that in my group, we only really started using the BE Specials when we also adopted the Duration Rule - so playing it anytime during battle would have been fine since it would continue to last. Does a tournament guide explain the use of this Special? I don't see any reason why I couldn't play it mid-battle, since the timing of its effect is still defined by the card.

When a card says "may" do something, it usually doesn't give any timing for when you "may" do it, leaving us all to infer that it's instantaneously (i.e., during this turn). The BE specifies that the attack is only after the concession, that's clearly when you may make the attack.

[Nate Grey]

Might as well get this one started.

Since it was already discussed in our previous conversation, I figure this is a good one to get going.

The duration meta rule:

Meta #145: Specials that do not indicate their duration by their game text should be considered Game lasting duration if they are One Per Deck and Battle lasting duration if they are non-OPD. Specials with instant effects are instant duration regardless.


The problem/reason we need to address it is: It only applies selectively to some cards, not all cards.

Proposed Change: Apply it as a blanket rule to ALL cards. Add a line about cards that state they last 'until <fill in requirement>' counting as a 'duration.'

Why the change: A consistent rule that's easy to apply based on actual card text.

What this would affect:

Certain cards would become game lasting cards, despite being non-OPD.

Examples:

EB specials - (Brood Spawn, Allies from the Deep) would last until hit, not for only one battle.
KC specials - (Mole Man Social outcast) would last until the printed condition is met, and not be discarded at the end of battle.
BE specials - (Blood Hunt, Urban Hunters) would become game lasting effects if they are OPD.
EC specials - (Shapeshift) would become game lasting specials instead of battle lasting specials.

Note: The errata on Maverick's Freelance spy should stand, so the card is considered to retain the phrase 'for remainder of battle.'


Thoughts?

-BBH

These all sound great to me! I especially would love if EB cards like Brood Spawn would last until hit. Its how we've always played them and I was quite dismayed when the official ruling was that it only lasted the battle. I've always found these duration rules quite frustrating, especially since the text of a number of cards don't make the duration clear. The Blanket Rule for these specials presented here is what I always envisioned for these cards anyway so I'm all for it. 

[BigBadHarve]

Certain cards would become game lasting cards, despite being non-OPD.
EB specials - (Brood Spawn, Allies from the Deep) would last until hit, not for only one battle.
KC specials - (Mole Man Social outcast) would last until the printed condition is met, and not be discarded at the end of battle.
BE specials - (Blood Hunt, Urban Hunters) would become game lasting effects if they are OPD.
EZ specials - (Shapeshift) would become game lasting specials instead of battle lasting specials.
Note: The errata on Maverick's Freelance spy should stand, so the card is considered to retain the phrase 'for remainder of battle.'

I thought our default setting here was following the text of the card. With that in mind I think despite being a OPD the Supergirl EZ has to be battle lasting if we're going by printed text and our interpretation of the "Duration Rule" is only to clarify a card when the duration is unclear.  How else do we square Supergirl's special with a Hydra's  (AY) special that has the same stat increase affect, but specifically states 'for remainder of game' as opposed to the (EZ) saying 'next battle' ?

Yes, and I have to concede that for simplicity sake it's the way to go... but it's a matter of semantics and for EZ cards could be argued. For our house system we went with the more advantageous effect for the card because our secondary goal was also to boost existing cards within justification of the text.

So, i've gone back and looked at, I think, literally every OPD Special (at least per the checklist on Jack's sight). It seems to me that, upon more careful consideration, all of the OPD Specials give some duration or another (the only exception seemed to be the BF-Special, increasing hits to K.O. to 30, which seems like it's indefinite). It seems to me that the whole OPD/non-OPD issue is almost moot.

------------------------BE:
The BE Specials all say "the battle" and the use of the word "the" seems to indicate that it's singular. It's the difference between,
"<Character> may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded the battle. Opponent may defend."
and simply saying,
"<Character> may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded. Opponent may defend."
that is to draw the definition and ask, does the word "the" actually mean "this"? Or does "the" actually mean "a"?

The other point of clarification on the BE Specials is to say that they would have a lasting effect beyond the current battle, if the opponent does not concede. For example, if Carnage plays his BE, and down the line Carnage then concedes the battle, does the BE stay out, since it has not yet been effective? In otherwords, is the "after opponent has conceded the battle" actually the duration? Or what if Carnage plays the BE, then the battle goes down and his opponent doesn't actually concede, but simply loses the Venture in the end?

For these cards I would maintain my argument that they should adhere to the duration rule.

In essence, for interpretation purposes the text on cards with no printed/implied duration should be read as "For remainder of battle/game, <insert card text>"

So OPD BE cards Should be considered: "For remainder of Game <Character> may make 1 attack after opponent has conceded the battle. Opponent may defend."

Now, it's not an errata, so the text doesn't actually appear, but it is important for interpretation.

-BBH