Committee Discussion topic #1: The Duration Meta Rule

[gameplan.exe]

There seems to be a lot of confusion out there about the rules, and which rules apply to which specials, and how to play with the Any-Power stat, and... ect, ect.  I was wondering if anyone would be interested in forming a committee to sit down and maybe re-write/clean-up Overpower's current rules in an attempt to make things easier for new players.  I'm well aware that there are official rules that people not of this forum would expect opponents to play by, but since Overpower has not been officially anything but dead since 1998, I would think it would be safe to take things into our own hands, the hands of the people who still actually play, and re-work them into something that's not quite so scary and "WTF"-y.

I thought the intent was pretty simple. Clean up and possibly rewrite the rules in order to have a more clear game to play and teach. In that regard, moving forward, I almost don't care how cards used to be played. I mean, it's a good reference, but just because something used to be a certain way, doesn't mean it should continue to be that way, right? I mean, that's why we're doing this in the first place.

So, with that, I think we should put this back on track and discuss specifically,
A) Which cards will be affected by the duration rule?
B) Which cards have lasting effects, but are no longer subject to the duration rule, because their duration is now determined by the card text?

As I stated before this post, I personally think
(A)
BE - I won't fight terribly for this, but as long as we're voting, I'll vote to include it.
BF - maybe the only card that clearly needs the Duration Rule.
KJ - Currently included in the Duration Rule and pretty much exactly to how I think
       BE should be played - play now, keep it out until it's used (except Wolvie's,
       which would be - play now, keep it out until it's used or the current battle ends)
MB - The secondary effect is open-ended, but it certainly seems it should stay for
       the whole game. Also, all versions are OPD, making it easy.


(B)
CK - because it I think the text indicates single battle
CT - because "until teammate is KO'd." is the duration
EB - because "until this special is attacked" is the default duration, except where the
       text specifies it is only Battle, or is Game lasting.
KC - because "until _____ is KO'd or cannot be attacked." is the duration.
KT - because "remainder of battle" and "teammate attacks this Special." are the
       specified durations.

EDIT:
dang! I even proof-read and still had to add post-script! lol

the MM card. When I re-read that card, it does seem very clear that it is Battle-lasting. That's how it was played before, even though it's OPD. I think that's because the card text makes it pretty clear it shoud be Battle-lasting. For comparison, if the FL cards did not include the "remainder of Game" text, I would argue for them to be Battle-lasting as well, but they do have the text.

Basically, what I did above was go through the existing Meta Rules and looked for anything with Rule #145 attached to it. I know that might still miss some codes, but I couldn't think of any more Specials that used to be under this rule, that shouldn't be... or any Specials that used to not be under this rule, that should be...

[Demacus]

What it all really boils down to here, is what our plan is.

The plan as I understand it, was to take the existing rule-set and clean up and simplify things to make the rules easy and intuitive. Which meant changing some rules where agreed upon by the committee.

If we are just going to play the cards as they are meant to by official rules, then we're wasting our time in all of this because it's all laid out in the meta rules (They contradict and create problems, but that's the game). This game CANNOT be simplified and have all the existing cards continue to function as-is. The only way to simplify it is to take a set of core rules that apply to everything, and implement them with minimal exceptions. (IE: a few errata.)

On that point, the core rules of this game are, in fact, very simple. And by that, I mean the core rules. Attack, defend, turns etc. The trouble starts with the wording on the specials. The duration rule is one of the key culprits in the confusion of how certain cards are played, hence my desire to start with it.

Changing the wording of the Duration Rule is a start, but first we must determine the intent so it's sparkling clear.

-BBH

As Ncann did quote my original intent, I'm not going to repeat it here.  Thanks Ncann.

As for Meta #145, I'm not against making the duration rule a blanket rule, but under it's current text, as I stated in my last post, it doesn't make any sense.  For the "Instant effects are instant regardless" part of meta #145 to function, we have to find which effects, under the original rules, were deemed to be instant effects, then keep those cards as such.  But even if we were to do THAT, the first part of Meta #145 STILL doesn't make sense, because there are EB specials and KC specials out there with printed durations which are not adhered to.

That being said, the simple way to rectify Meta #145 would be to re-write it "Specials with a printed duration, remain in play until that duration is fulfilled."  That is simple, and concise and to the point.  However, if a new player is playing a card with a printed duration, he will, logically, attempt to keep that special in play until it's printed duration is met, and thus doing so, makes this rule redundant and unnessasary.  If we are to bring this specific rule to a vote, my vote would be to simply eliminate it entirely and remove the confusion it causes that way.  As far as specific duration changes on specials, we can discuss each special code at a later time.

[gameplan.exe]

If we are to bring this specific rule to a vote, my vote would be to simply eliminate it entirely and remove the confusion it causes that way.  As far as specific duration changes on specials, we can discuss each special code at a later time.

I just don't know about that part, though. It seems like the Duration Rule is still valuable for some of the cards it originally affected, like BF, KJ, and MB. I think the text of the rule has never been the problem, only it's application. It should never have affected EB or KC cards, as discussed.

As for the cards with "instant" effects, that's kind of misleading. I mean, a KC has an instant effect, as well as a lasting effect. While a card like the KJ card has a lasting effect, without an instant effect. To me, whether or not a card has an "instant" effect is not relative to whether or not it has a lasting effect (EZ is a great example of dynamics of these words).

[Demacus]

Of those you listed Ncann, the BF special is really the only one that truly does not have a printed duration.  The KJ special is actually quite clear on how that particular special effects the state of the game and when it would effect the state of the game.

The MB as well, having a state for it's second affect to come into play and for how long that affect remains in play "If successful, target character is KO'ed by the next level 2 __ power card hit, regardless of Inherant Abilities and other Special cards."  If you really break it down, if the lvl 6A attack from this special hits it's target, even if the 6A itself is removed before the killing blow is delievered, the pre-requisite for the level 2 power card hit to be an instant KO has still been met and would still be in play until the character the MB was played against is KO'ed.  The only question both of these specials raise in MY mind would be, "Do I have to play the KJ special in the Battle in which Shang-Chi is KO'ed?"  It does seem clear to me by the way it's written, that once it has been played, it's affect just kind of "floats" waiting for an opportunity to trigger.  The same thing with the MB special.  It's second effect simply waits for a level 2 power card hit of the pre-determined stat to land, to trigger it's effect, aka KO this character.

That being the case, I would still think it would be easier to errata the BF special itself, and any other random specials that may have been overlooked by this rule, then making this a blanket rule and changing the durations of specials that shouldn't have their durations changed.  Perhaps we can think of a better way to re-word this rule, so that it makes sense, without screwing with established card plays?

The BF special, even prior to meta #145 was always for the remainder of the game in the circles I played it.  It just seemed that that was the intent of the card, even if it didn't exclusively say so.  But aside from this 1 card, I haven't seen a single example of a card with an unclear duration, simply cards with durations that were being disregarded for the sake of making some more powerful then others, when some were already more powerful then others for reasons other then "this one is OPD and this one is not, so the OPD should be stronger." 

I still think we'd be better off establishing what cards do what, and THEN deciding to change the rule that makes the cards not nessassarily do what they ought.  If we are really going to go through the rules to see what's clear and what's not clear, we should start at the beginning, not just jump from 1 meta to another based on "I've always hated this rule.  How do we fix it?"  We might actually work out an agreeable solution to this particular conundrum if we start at the foundation and work our way back to it.

[gameplan.exe]

Of those you listed Ncann, the BF special is really the only one that truly does not have a printed duration.  The KJ special is actually quite clear on how that particular special effects the state of the game and when it would effect the state of the game.

The MB as well, having a state for it's second affect to come into play and for how long that affect remains in play "If successful, target character is KO'ed by the next level 2 __ power card hit, regardless of Inherant Abilities and other Special cards."  If you really break it down, if the lvl 6A attack from this special hits it's target, even if the 6A itself is removed before the killing blow is delievered, the pre-requisite for the level 2 power card hit to be an instant KO has still been met and would still be in play until the character the MB was played against is KO'ed.  The only question both of these specials raise in MY mind would be, "Do I have to play the KJ special in the Battle in which Shang-Chi is KO'ed?"  It does seem clear to me by the way it's written, that once it has been played, it's affect just kind of "floats" waiting for an opportunity to trigger.  The same thing with the MB special.  It's second effect simply waits for a level 2 power card hit of the pre-determined stat to land, to trigger it's effect, aka KO this character.

That being the case, I would still think it would be easier to errata the BF special itself, and any other random specials that may have been overlooked by this rule, then making this a blanket rule and changing the durations of specials that shouldn't have their durations changed.  Perhaps we can think of a better way to re-word this rule, so that it makes sense, without screwing with established card plays?

The BF special, even prior to meta #145 was always for the remainder of the game in the circles I played it.  It just seemed that that was the intent of the card, even if it didn't exclusively say so.  But aside from this 1 card, I haven't seen a single example of a card with an unclear duration, simply cards with durations that were being disregarded for the sake of making some more powerful then others, when some were already more powerful then others for reasons other then "this one is OPD and this one is not, so the OPD should be stronger." 

I do agree that BF clearly needs to be addressed one way or another. I still think MB needs the rule because it's open-ended, just like BF is open-ended. With no clearly marked end to the duration, it could go either way - hence the rule.

For the KJ Special (and actually the NY, too), I think it needs clarification/inclusion because it starts by saying "Play during battle" which could easily leave the interpretation that the revival/protection is only for the current battle. It's like the old Life3 Spell in FFVI, which would do an auto-raise if KO'd, but it was only good for the one battle - as opposed to the version in FFXI, which stays on you between battles, until it's actually used or it's removed from an enemy (or wears off, but whatever  ). This is also where I think the BE Specials fall. Wolverine's could be played as his opening move, and at the end of that battle it goes away, regardless of how the battle ended, while the OPD versions would stay until they're actually used or negated, but the "instant" effect of them is that they "instantly" give the characters that played them the ability to attack once the opponent concedes.

On that topic, ever read the Meta Rule regarding actions after concession? It says only one Special may be played... so if you don't play the BE until the opponent concedes, that would mean you couldn't make an attack with another Special card... that certainly doesn't seem right. That's why I think the BE should be playable at any time...

I still think we'd be better off establishing what cards do what, and THEN deciding to change the rule that makes the cards not nessassarily do what they ought.  If we are really going to go through the rules to see what's clear and what's not clear, we should start at the beginning, not just jump from 1 meta to another based on "I've always hated this rule.  How do we fix it?"  We might actually work out an agreeable solution to this particular conundrum if we start at the foundation and work our way back to it.

Now, to THIS point, I think I agree. I think, maybe the more efficient way to do this might be to go through the cards by code and address any that are NOT played exactly as written. Essentially, we'd be chucking ALL the Meta Rules right now, and writing our own. This isn't altogether different than the work BBH has done, except I think lots of people think some of the Specials should NOT be played "as written" (like BQ, BY, etc).

[Demacus]

I more specifically ment to start with Meta rule #1, then #2, and so forth, but I'm not opposed to breaking down each individual special code either.  But if we DO the specials by code, the OPD/non-OPD of various cards really shouldn't be a factor in how that SPECIFIC card is played compared to others of the same code.  There are plenty of unique codes out there, (KJ, MM, ect, ect,) and we could interpret new ways of translating what's there and what was ment by the writting.

I'm with you on the BE specials being playable during battle, and creating a "buff" which would trigger when the opponent actually concedes a battle later in the game.  The more I thought about that angle since this thread started, the more that made sense.

The most important thing with cleaning things up though, if forming an understandable foundation to build from, before we start putting up the decorations.

[steve2275]

please forgive my interjection (the forum does say public and open in it)
as far as mm special goes it says

all hits from current battle
not
all hits currently in hits from current battle

[Demacus]

Yes it does.  The same is true about the GF special of Holocaust (Move all hits from Holocaust's hits from current battle into permanent record.  Affects venture total.) and The Kree (Move all hits from the current battle into the permanent record of all characters.  Affects venture total.) (Apocalyptic Minion and Colonial Yon-Rogg) but in these two cases the GF special only affects the cards in play at the time the GF is played.  They DO NOT affect attacks made later in the same turn or even the next hand/battle.  Hence the conundrum of the MM special.  Does "all hits from current battle" refer to the hits already in play, or till the end of the battle/game?  If "all hits" for the MM last until the remainder of the battle, why doesn't Apocalyptic Minion work in a same manner?  Colonial Yon-Rogg would completely wipe your opponent's venture for the remainder of the game, since his GF is also One-Per-Deck, and until that special is negated specifically, it would remain in play beyond KO'ing The Kree, since that special does affect the entire team.

[gameplan.exe]

Yes it does.  The same is true about the GF special of Holocaust (Move all hits from Holocaust's hits from current battle into permanent record.  Affects venture total.) and The Kree (Move all hits from the current battle into the permanent record of all characters.  Affects venture total.) (Apocalyptic Minion and Colonial Yon-Rogg) but in these two cases the GF special only affects the cards in play at the time the GF is played.  They DO NOT affect attacks made later in the same turn or even the next hand/battle.  Hence the conundrum of the MM special.  Does "all hits from current battle" refer to the hits already in play, or till the end of the battle/game?  If "all hits" for the MM last until the remainder of the battle, why doesn't Apocalyptic Minion work in a same manner?  Colonial Yon-Rogg would completely wipe your opponent's venture for the remainder of the game, since his GF is also One-Per-Deck, and until that special is negated specifically, it would remain in play beyond KO'ing The Kree, since that special does affect the entire team.

The Apoc Minion and Col Y-Rogg cards have actions in them (moving cards), so they are inidividual, finite actions (just like an attack is a singular action). There's no indication that there is a lasting effect in them, allowing you to move subsequent hits. The action of moving the hit requires additional actions.

The MM Special is much more like the FL specials. You're affecting cards that are defined by the Special. The definition is "Hits from the Current Battle" - but you're not actually doing anything to the cards themselves (like a KL, AL, or aforementioned GF Specials).

The MM Special is more like the flip side of a CQ-Special (which doubles the venture total of the character's Specials). It affects all the cards that are in play, and the cards that will come into play (granted, the CQ does state it lasts for battle, but the effect is the same).

[Demacus]

The Apoc Minion and Col Y-Rogg cards have actions in them (moving cards), so they are inidividual, finite actions (just like an attack is a singular action). There's no indication that there is a lasting effect in them, allowing you to move subsequent hits. The action of moving the hit requires additional actions.

The MM Special is much more like the FL specials. You're affecting cards that are defined by the Special. The definition is "Hits from the Current Battle" - but you're not actually doing anything to the cards themselves (like a KL, AL, or aforementioned GF Specials).

The MM Special is more like the flip side of a CQ-Special (which doubles the venture total of the character's Specials). It affects all the cards that are in play, and the cards that will come into play (granted, the CQ does state it lasts for battle, but the effect is the same).

I was unaware of this ruling about moving cards being considered an additional, definable action, thus indicating the end of an effect.  Based on that knowledge, your comparison to the CQ would be considerably more accurate.  Where can I find this rule about moving cards?  Is it in the metas somewhere, or part of the basic rules that I just never caught?

EDIT:

Jack brought to light where I was mistaken about the MM special with http://overpower.ca/pages/meta.php


This list clearly states that the special itself is battle lasting, and that is really all I was looking for, was an official ruling of how this special is played normally.  Based on this information, I stand corrected in insisting that it should have an instantaneous effect.  I do, however, still think it's effect is too powerful for anything beyond a single battle.

[gameplan.exe]

EDIT:

Jack brought to light where I was mistaken about the MM special with http://overpower.ca/pages/meta.php


This list clearly states that the special itself is battle lasting, and that is really all I was looking for, was an official ruling of how this special is played normally.  Based on this information, I stand corrected in insisting that it should have an instantaneous effect.  I do, however, still think it's effect is too powerful for anything beyond a single battle.

so, where does this leave us with the discussion at large? I mean, are we still trying to define "instant" for all the cards? If that's the case, then it seems like going through each card by code is the only effective way...

[Demacus]

The link Jack posted clearly defines what cards are Instant, Battle and Game durations.

I've noticed that I'm a bit of a dope (or too busy to really process everything I read due to work being more distracting then I initially thought) and have come to the conclusion that what I was driving at when I suggested this committee, was to accomplish what Jack is actually doing with his Wiki.

That being said, I'm completely on board with making this a forum for a community "House Rules" that we, as a group, can opt to play by.

I still think we should start at #1 though.