sum deck rule

[breadmaster]

so i made an annihilation theme deck based on the 4 limited series.  super skrull/silver surfer/kree (ronan the accuser)/new warriors (nova)

this is not a powerful team by any means, yet it's 10 points above sum deck (due to only one 3 stat, and three 4s...everything else is 5 or above)

then i was thinking about the extremes.  if i build the highest sum deck: beyonder/galactus/two 23s (say cable and team x), i'm 26 points above sum deck

if i build the lowest: samson/morph/jubilee/doppelganger (all 3stat), i'm 18 points below

so, what would y'all think about trying a house rule abandoning sum deck completely, in favour of a system where the difference between decks (in the extremes it would be 44 points) becomes a 'bank' of venture points to be applied at any time the lower total feels.  for example, you're going to lose venture by 10, so you use 11 of your available 44 points to win that round.

[Bios]

New ideas are always welcome! I don't like the canonical 76 sum. 

I am not sure if leaving deck building completely open would work (it would turn test playing near impossible, due to the number of deck building combinations), but I guess it would be great to allow a range with bonuses or penalties, according to the sum.

I tried to deal with that creating new homebases with alternative sum grid possibilities. They seem to work well with my playing group:

[Eponymous]

If memory serves right, someone (I wish I could remember who so I could give him/her credit) came up with an interesting system called cost-capping. It made more teams playable without becoming a free-for-all (which is an option for casual play, of course).

Essentially, you still had to get to 76 or under, but it counted each character's cost differently based on its grid. You had a starting value and added 1 for each stat of 6, 2 for each stat of 7 and 3 for each stat of 8. The online group play-tested it and it seemed balanced, making multiple 6 characters (I'm looking at you, Aquaman) and over-costed double 7s (from Batman to extremes like Cable or Thor) affordable.

I'll see if I have the details anywhere.

EDIT: Found it! It's more complicated than I remember, but may be worth trying. I remember building Bats, Superman, Wonder Woman and Flash in Reserve, for example. Not broken in any way, but fun!

As posted by Lee Valentine on the Age of Apocalypse Message Board, summary by me.

-Sum deck is always 76.
-If the cost cap value is higher than the actual grid sum, use the grid sum instead.
-Alway add 4 to the grid of the old 3 stat characters to compare grid sum vs. cost cap.
-Max 6 characters start with a value of 14, max 7 start with 15 and max 8 start with 16.
-Add 1 for every 6 on the grid, 2 for every 7 and 3 for every 8.
-Add 1 for every point of continuous venture bonus or penalty (i.e. both Invisibe Woman and Longsht get +2).
-Add 1 for every point of limited use grid (Reyes' grid goes from 6I to 8I on defense, so she gets +2).
-Add 1 if the character has an inherent ability with the word KO on it.
-The reserve character gets +2 to its cost cap (remember, if that puts it over the grid sum, you use the grid sum).

Exceptions:
-Characters with an inherent that sets their cost cannot be cost-capped (e.g. Hydra) .
-Beyonder, Galactus and Onslaught cannot be cost-capped.

Try it out. I liked it.

[breadmaster]

it's interesting, but it seems like it's just a way to add better high stat characters.  who's going to put in batman when you can get cable at a discount (besides me )

[Jack]

This new grid intrigued me enough to see which characters could be abused. I haven't verified if my calculations are exact but there are 10 characters that have a 5 point difference:

APOCALYPSE (5-5-7-6) - 18
TEAM X (5-7-6-5) - 18
NEW WARRIORS (6-6-5-5) - 17
CABLE (6-5-6) - 16
VISION (5-4-6-6) - 16
GHOST RIDER (6-5-6) - 16
MR. SINISTER (6-6-5) - 16
VISION (5-5-6) - 15
DEATHLOK (4-5-5-6) - 15
COMM. GORDON & G.C.P.D. (4-5-5-6) - 15

4 points:

VENOM (6-6-7) - 19
WARLOCK (7-6-4-6) - 19
CABLE (7-7-4-5) - 19
THOR (7-5-7-4) - 19
DOCTOR DOOM (7-6-6) - 19
IRON MAN (7-6-6) - 19
SPIDER-MAN (6-7-6) - 19
SCARLET SPIDER (5-7-6) - 18
BETA RAY BILL (5-4-7-6) - 18
MERCURY (6-7-5-4) - 18
KREE (6-5-4-7) - 18
SENTINELS (7-5-6) - 18
THUNDERBOLTS (7-5-4-6) - 18
DOCTOR POLARIS (6-4-4-6) - 16
GREEN GOBLIN (4-4-6-6) - 16
GAMBIT (6-6-4-4) - 16
MYSTIQUE (5-6-3-6) - 16
HAWKMAN (4-6-6-4) - 16
QUICKSILVER (6-6-4) - 16
GAMBIT (6-5-4) - 15
BISHOP (5-6-4) - 15
PSYLOCKE (5-6-4) - 15

These numbers also factor in the +4 for the 3-stat characters.

[Eponymous]

it's interesting, but it seems like it's just a way to add better high stat characters.  who's going to put in batman when you can get cable at a discount (besides me )

I agree, but don't you think that has more to do with the weak specials Bats got? To fix that, you would need a set like The Marvels to address those gaps.

DC compounded the problem by underpowering the first set and giving their flagship characters double 7 stats. While double 7s sounds like a good idea at first, it tends to make characters too expensive. Look at Thor and Cable; they have a nice array of specials, but at their cost, you have to build around them.

I don't think cost-capping revolutionizes or breaks the game open, but it does make it more bearable to play some of those dust-covered characters. Would I like to throw Apocalypse into a deck? Sure. Can I justify it at 23 points? No. Do I want to use Ship as a home base every time I want to play him? Meh.

By the way, your mission, should you chose to accept it, is to put BOTH Batman and Cable on a deck. Do it. You know you want to... 

PS: Jack, you can actually build the Team X / Wolvie / Sabretooth / Maverick deck.

[Onslaught]

By the way, your mission, should you chose to accept it, is to put BOTH Batman and Cable on a deck. Do it. You know you want to... 

All too easy.



This deck is actually under one point

[Eponymous]

Touché, Onny. Touché.

[Hotobu]

If they're gonna be house rules then I say just ignore the sum deck rule all together. It's not like this game is alive and well with tons of people to play. Why not just do whatever you can to add to the variety?

If you must put limitations on the sum deck rule I suggest the following.

Opponent is -2 to venture for every 2 points that your team is over 75.

or here's an interesting take. Why not put all of the home bases with negative inherents in a pile, and before each round draw one at random that will be the negative effect to the team for that battle? Then replace the card and reshuffle for every battle. Some effects aren't too bad, others are crippling. This would add some randomness that could be fun.

[Supermartin]

Did the deck win any games??

[breadmaster]

if you mean the annihilation deck, I don't recall unfortunately

it was a year and a half ago, and I probably only played it once or twice (it's not cool asking your opponent if it's ok to play a team worth 86 sum deck points )

surfer and new warriors are quite good, but super skrull and kree have pretty lousy cards considering their high cost

I just re-read annihilation too...great story.  maybe I should dig this team up again!