Fun question for debate

[BigBadHarve]

Hypothetical Scenario:

I use Post's Lethal Tester on my opponent, and attack myself with my opponent's placed 'Finite Power.'

For the remainder of the battle, when I play an attack from the character I just hit with Finite Power, which of the players must discard?

And.... DISCUSS!

[AO user]

I think it would be post's teammate who pays 2 cards to attack.   I can Imagine BBH stays awake at night wondering how to ruin "those Lazy Spawn decks"...    it WOULD be devastating if Spawn had to discard 

[BigBadHarve]

I think it would be post's teammate who pays 2 cards to attack.   I can Imagine BBH stays awake at night wondering how to ruin "those Lazy Spawn decks"...    it WOULD be devastating if Spawn had to discard 

Ah ha! But there's the rub! Since Post played the special, and the special affects the 'opponent' would not that player have to discard?

After all, if Post lethal tested a special with a negative effect, like  X-Man's ultimate potential, it would be Post and his team that would be unable to attack for the remainder of the battle, not the opponent. This was decided in a previous discussion.

Since you can't have it both ways - who does the effect of Finite Power penalize?

[AO user]

Aaaaaahhhh!  So many layers to this game!  And YOU always run deep, BBH.  Lets hear from some others on this...

[chuu]

I say that both players discard

[breadmaster]

is the ultimate potential ruling official?  it does say 'x-man's team', so if both players have x-man...maybe?

the spawn card:

Play on Target Character as an attack. For remainder of battle, Target Character may not attack unless Opponent also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand. (ZY)

even if you did play that the other player discards, the word 'unless' suggests to me it would be their choice. 

[AO user]

Ultimate potential has effect on team that launched it.  Finite power has effect on player that it lands on.

[BigBadHarve]

Ultimate potential has effect on team that launched it.  Finite power has effect on player that it lands on.

So you are double penalizing the Lethal Tester.

I think it should be kept simple - if I launch your Ultimate Potential - your team should take the penalty as it is your card. If I launch your finite power on to myself, I should still take the penalty.

But someone pointed out that when Post plays the lethal tester, the card played essentially becomes Posts card, with all effects working as if Post played it (with the exception of the venture from damage taken). So if I play your placed Power Leech, you must discard, not me. If I play your placed Ultimate potential, I am the one blocked from attacking.

So, I think the bottom line is this - does Lethal Tester make the card played belong to Post, or does he simply activate it as if the opponent played it (which I think is the more efficient play)

[breadmaster]

does it say that anywhere?

the rule for activators is to switch the name, but it doesn't necessarily transfer to this situation.  didn't we discuss this before with beta ray bill and gift from the gods?

[BigBadHarve]

does it say that anywhere?

the rule for activators is to switch the name, but it doesn't necessarily transfer to this situation.  didn't we discuss this before with beta ray bill and gift from the gods?

I can't find any official confirmation. I'm going based on a conversation that was had about it previously, as to what the ruling might be.

I recall the decision being that since Post played the special, and effects or what-have-you would be based from the perspective that Post played the card.

[Hot Rod]

This has been waaaay over blown.

Finite power is obviously a Python Hold with the stipulation that if 2 cards are discarded, the target character may conduct an attack.

Simply change the "Opponent" to a second "Target Character."

Thus: Target Character may not attack unless Target Character also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand.

It looks to me to just be another "target" versus "opponent" debacle that we've all seen a million times by now.



As a side curiosity, is this discard mechanic interpreted the same as the HY code in the tournament guide?

[BigBadHarve]

This has been waaaay over blown.

Finite power is obviously a Python Hold with the stipulation that if 2 cards are discarded, the target character may conduct an attack.

Simply change the "Opponent" to a second "Target Character."

Thus: Target Character may not attack unless Target Character also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand.

It looks to me to just be another "target" versus "opponent" debacle that we've all seen a million times by now.

As a side curiosity, is this discard mechanic interpreted the same as the HY code in the tournament guide?

This is not overblown - I think the wording in this case must be very specific.

The target character vs. target 'opponent' was cleared up as only cards from the first set said target opponent.

However, in the case of something like Lethal Tester, the distinction of who suffers the effects is extremely important. Finite Power clearly states that target character may not attack unless OPPONENT also discards.

But let's go back to another effect. Say, Marauders Harpoon - If I lethal test Harpoon on myself, does the opponent have to discard all specials in hand, or do I?

By playing lethal tester, am I forcing my opponent to make the attack, or am I making the attack.

The card says 'POST may attack any front line teammate with opponent's placed card.' In saying Post is attacking, that implies that since I'm playing the card, we must treat is as though I played the special myself. So, I lethal test Leech, and my opponent discards. I lethal test Ultimate Potential, and I may not attack for the remainder of the battle. If I lethal test Finite Power, I can force a discard by attacking with the locked character.

Conversely, if I am forcing my opponent to play the card, then we must treat it from that perspective. So if I lethal test Ultimate potential, then my opponent may not attack for remainder of battle.

So bottom line - which way is it?

[Hot Rod]

This is not overblown - I think the wording in this case must be very specific.

The target character vs. target 'opponent' was cleared up as only cards from the first set said target opponent.

However, in the case of something like Lethal Tester, the distinction of who suffers the effects is extremely important. Finite Power clearly states that target character may not attack unless OPPONENT also discards.

But let's go back to another effect. Say, Marauders Harpoon - If I lethal test Harpoon on myself, does the opponent have to discard all specials in hand, or do I?

By playing lethal tester, am I forcing my opponent to make the attack, or am I making the attack.

The card says 'POST may attack any front line teammate with opponent's placed card.' In saying Post is attacking, that implies that since I'm playing the card, we must treat is as though I played the special myself. So, I lethal test Leech, and my opponent discards. I lethal test Ultimate Potential, and I may not attack for the remainder of the battle. If I lethal test Finite Power, I can force a discard by attacking with the locked character.

Conversely, if I am forcing my opponent to play the card, then we must treat it from that perspective. So if I lethal test Ultimate potential, then my opponent may not attack for remainder of battle.

So bottom line - which way is it?

It does indeed become a Post special card.  Which is why I changed the text on Finite Power to make it more clear.

Again: Target Character may not attack unless Target Character also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand.

If you attack a character with Finite Power who discards?  The defending character.

If you attack a character with Power Leech who discards?  The defending character and or the defending characters team.

If you attack a character with Ultimate Potential whose team cannot attack?  The attacking characters team.

Simple.

[BigBadHarve]

It does indeed become a Post special card.  Which is why I changed the text on Finite Power to make it more clear.

Again: Target Character may not attack unless Target Character also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand.

If you attack a character with Finite Power who discards?  The defending character.

If you attack a character with Power Leech who discards?  The defending character and or the defending characters team.

If you attack a character with Ultimate Potential whose team cannot attack?  The attacking characters team.

Simple.

Ummmm.. what? Not simple - You've just made it inconsistent and complicated.

You can't change the text on Finite Power, as there is no official errata. It must be played as written. It's not the target who discards, it's the opponent. If I'm locked with Finite power under normal circumstances, I can pitch another character's placed cards to attack with the locked character.

And finite power does NOT lock defense, just attacks. So you can attack a character locked with finite power, but he can defend without penalty. This is normal.

The question that needs to be answered, and no one yet has - is when Lethal Tester has been a factor in a played card, who/what team is considered to have played the card. The bonuses and penalties must be kept consistent.

If you're telling me that I am penalized for Lethal Testing Ultimate Potential, then fine. The reverse must therefore be true if I lethal test cards the affect the opponent. In that case If I am the one lethal testing Leech, then my opponent must discard.

Likewise if I lethal test finite power, ergo my opponent must discard if I attack from that character.

But if you're saying that a special activated by Lethal Tester is NOT being played from Post, then normal attacking rules apply, and I am simply activating my opponent's card as though they played it, then I can lethal test Ultimate potential and lock down my opponent's team, not my own.

But either way, the rules must remain consistent. So I ask again - which is it?

[Hot Rod]

It does indeed become a Post special card.  Which is why I changed the text on Finite Power to make it more clear.

Again: Target Character may not attack unless Target Character also discards 2 cards per attack. Cards may be Placed or in Hand.

If you attack a character with Finite Power who discards?  The defending character.

If you attack a character with Power Leech who discards?  The defending character and or the defending characters team.

If you attack a character with Ultimate Potential whose team cannot attack?  The attacking characters team.

Simple.

Ummmm.. what? Not simple - You've just made it inconsistent and complicated.

You can't change the text on Finite Power, as there is no official errata. It must be played as written. It's not the target who discards, it's the opponent. If I'm locked with Finite power under normal circumstances, I can pitch another character's placed cards to attack with the locked character.

And finite power does NOT lock defense, just attacks. So you can attack a character locked with finite power, but he can defend without penalty. This is normal.

The question that needs to be answered, and no one yet has - is when Lethal Tester has been a factor in a played card, who/what team is considered to have played the card. The bonuses and penalties must be kept consistent.

If you're telling me that I am penalized for Lethal Testing Ultimate Potential, then fine. The reverse must therefore be true if I lethal test cards the affect the opponent. In that case If I am the one lethal testing Leech, then my opponent must discard.

Likewise if I lethal test finite power, ergo my opponent must discard if I attack from that character.

But if you're saying that a special activated by Lethal Tester is NOT being played from Post, then normal attacking rules apply, and I am simply activating my opponent's card as though they played it, then I can lethal test Ultimate potential and lock down my opponent's team, not my own.

But either way, the rules must remain consistent. So I ask again - which is it?

Going by the exact text on Finite Power; it's obvious that that my second explanation applies.

If you're unable to find this simple I suggest getting some rest.  You've clearly been awake too long and you're starting to imagine things.