Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Hey Overpower fans! A new Overpower expansion has been created, called Power Balance. It started out as a little personal project, but it kept growing and became something much bigger. After production, I thought it would only be fair to share this with the Overpower community, and hope you guys could get something out of it too giving you something new and exciting to play with, and who knows, in an ideal world, it could perhaps re-ignite interest from ex-Overpower fans and help the Overpower community grow once more!


A lot of effort has been put into making this feel like the real thing, so that Overpower fans could really get immersed in this like it was a real Overpower expansion. This doesn't just extend to the cards themselves, but the tuck box and the instruction manual that comes with it! I believe that all Overpower fans who have maintained unwavering loyalty over the years should get rewarded! A website has been created for this, so people can see what is included in this expansion: http://www.oppowerbalance.net


Featuring 48 cards, this expansion was designed with two main intentions:
1) To make the game feel more complete
2) To make the game feel more balanced


The game is made more complete by creating the characters listed on Location cards but weren't ever officially printed. Every little detail was recreated, from the artistic style and the text, all the way to the smallest details. Other cards which never got printed, like the Marvel version Any-Power cards, level 5 MultiPower cards, 4-stat Galactus character, etc. were included in this expansion. Some of the the "accidental" inserts (Avenger's ID, Level 6 Any-Power Teamwork, Deal With The Devil) were also redrawn and remade in the style of the rest of the Power Balance expansion, just for people to have a go at playing with them!


The game is made more balanced with new rules for play and new cards. More details on this can be found on the website. Some traditional Overpower enthusiasts will find this difficult to swallow, so you don't have to play with the new rules if you don't want to; you can still play with the new cards using the old rules!


Anyways, feel free to have a look at this in more detail on the website. The OP in the web address stands for OverPower (no kidding? LOL!) - http://www.oppowerbalance.net

Is there any way I can order a set from you or your site? The cards look great.

edit: I like the multi-power teamwork cards, interesting idea.

pretty good name too

this looks great!! ditto to TGW, how do I get a set (or 2)!?

Am I reading the site wrong, or did they only create one special per new character. That doesn't seem to make them very usable.

Graphics and design look great though. I like that they even made a box for them. It brings back some great memories.

Quote from: mattkoz on February 11, 2013, 01:28:22 PM
Am I reading the site wrong, or did they only create one special per new character. That doesn't seem to make them very usable.

Graphics and design look great though. I like that they even made a box for them. It brings back some great memories.

That's how it looks to me, but honestly, I'm interested for those Power cards as much as anything else  :D

Yes, there is only one special per new character, so while it's fair to say the characters aren't very usable with just that one special, they are at least usable in some way (battlesites such as The Sewer get a boost), which is a step in the right direction.

The new power cards and multi-icon teamwork cards are very cool.

Glad to hear that the expansion is well received, and that you guys like the new cards that have been introduced.

Yes, there is only one Special per character at this stage, but future revisions are planned if this is popular enough. I was hoping the fans (i.e. you guys!) could help decide what Specials would be best to help balance the game, and make the next revision a group project! Feel free to discuss future ideas here!

If you are interested in obtaining a set of Power Balance, you can simply send an e-mail to oppowerbalance@gmail.com. The cost of a set is $25, which covers cost of design and printing the cards, which were all professionally done. (The commissioned artist, graphics designer, mathematician, and printer all were paid in the making of this project!) No profit would be made from this at all, as this would make it illegal. Shipping would depend on your location. So yeah, hit me up if you'd like one!

Email sent, although I sent it when I first read the post this morning lol. $25 sounds like a great deal, I really like a lot of the cards and ideas presented in the set, and I'm intrigued with the new cost totals of the characters. A lot of really cool stuff.

Are these in hand and ready to ship, or are they in the process of being printed? I could have Paypal sent tonight, most likely.

Man these cards look good. I think I might have to look into getting a set. Well done guys another great custom set.

TGW, I currently have a small handful ready to go. The rest of them should reach me within about a week.

Garose, no worries. Received your e-mail as well, and have also replied!

Your cards look great but damn the new rules you setup completely change the game .. probably shouldn't be called overpower anything ... specials, strategy and inherents are used to balance the game, not saying anything is anywhere near perfect at present but it's a game I have loved playing for a long time.  A whole new ruleset is a whole new game and probably not something I would be interested in.

Knnthwht, LOL - fair enough. Which is why the initial post mentions that you don't have to take on the new rules at all. Just simply play the game with the rules you feel comfortable with. I know change is something can be difficult for traditional OverPower enthusiasts to swallow, so feel free to ignore the new rules if you wish!

This is basically just a way for the OverPower community to get excited about something again, whether it be new rules for play, or simply new cards to use. As I mentioned before, people who have been loyal to OverPower for so long should be rewarded in some way!

In any case, those who are keen on trying something new, a lot of effort has been made to make the game as balanced as it can be through statistics and mathematics, not just empirically by trial and error. Feel free to express your opinions and ideas - as mentioned before, it should be a game made for the fans, BY the fans!

First off great cards! It looks like a lot of time and effort were put into these. I am usually the 1st to throw money at anything OP but I'm going to pass on these. If its not usable in a tourney I am usually not interested.

wow...those cards look fantastic!

i was looking to add those same 10 characters in with the 'evils' set.  gonna be damn hard to try to match/top your art choices! 

we had the same inherent idea for viper...it may prove too strong though, we'll see!

great job!

Thanks Breadmaster. Although those were not art choices, but artwork drawn specifically for Power Balance by commissioned artists. The guy had to imitate the style of the artwork in the existing OverPower expansions (well, up to Classic anyway), and he's done a really good job!

Ha ha - yeah, great minds think alike hey? We'll see if Viper is too strong as a result - it has been play tested a bit, but shouldn't be too much of an advantage, given her Power Grid.

Wow! That's all I can say at the moment. Gorgeous artwork! Those character cards are just stunning and maintain the feel of the game. I will definitely be inquiring about getting a set...or two.  :D  Those power cards are currently what I'm most excited about. Would be awesome to start seeing some Multi 5 power cards in our decks as well as those Any Power cards. Great stuff! Congrats and thanks for reigniting more excitement into the game.

Nate, glad you like the Character cards! As mentioned on the website, it was critical to maintain the feel of the game and reproduce EVERY little detail to make it as genuine as possible. The commissioned artist I used was very skilled, and fortunately did a really good job. I have to admit, even I was surpised how well they turned out when I first received them from the printer.

And yes, it's really cool just to be able to hold a hand full of Any-Power cards that just look like they all "belong"!

Thanks for your comments - just glad the OverPower community can benefit from this!

WAAAAAY awesome.  I would play with any homemade cards that look this good, even if not tourney legal.  Having cards printed on real stock makes them so much cooler than home prints or office max prints.  I appreciate that there are yet even more groups that love this game enough to further keep it fresh.  I hope I have an opportunity to get a few sets from you, and please join us in making suggestions to this community's custom sets, as well as your own.  Great group of guys here onthe Palatinus OP Forum... welcome aboard!!!

Lovin' the cards! The rules . . . not so much. I've never had a problem with OP's mechanics (I remember a guidebook to CCGs praising it for not being another Magic gameplay clone, especially considering how close it's debut was to M:tG)

The changes suggested remind me of another 'overhaul' to the game, this one by players from New England about 12-13 years ago if my memory serves.

I agree with knnthwht that the proposed changes are too much of a departure from what is a very streamlined game. You could call it "ReCharge" if you wanted to, pretty sure that name is free  ;)

Thetrooper27, glad to hear it! It certainly does feel nice playing with actual cards, not just home prints of them. Yes, I would be honoured to make suggestions to the OverPower community custom sets! In fact, feel free to hit me up if you guys want info on the printers, commissioned artists and graphics designers used in the process. It would be great if the OverPower community had the BEST custom made cards of any CCG!

Skeevo666, that's understandable. You certainly don't have to play with the rules suggested here at all! You can just use the cards like normal if you really wanted. There really aren't that many departures though, just a new way to allocate Point Value and some new ways to play some cards. In any case, glad you love the designs. Also, cool how both you and knnthwht posted on this topic as one of your first posts in the Palatinus forums - very honoured!

I think the rules are different... but I wouldn't say they don't feel like overpower yet.  I want to experiment with them before passing judgment.  My initial thought was:

Multipower cards will get much less use.

Looking at the point value system (which would be hard for me to calculate based on the formula... I'm not a math whiz), I see alot of my favorite characters becoming costly where they were a fit before... Hulk, Wolverine... these guys are up to 23 points now!  But I won't say it isn't worth it.  Here's why.

With the new design of doubleshots, I'm seeing alot more defensive capability for multiple characters on a team, even if they don't have great defensive specials.  OverPower needs a means to evade more attacks, particularly for max 6'ers.  Broadening the spectrum range might be good for the low end characters, making them strong contenders vs. the big guys.  I do like the idea of that balance... if it works out.  Most characters wouldn't be able to use a level 3, 4, or 5 multipower card because they don't have a 3, 4, or 5 in all stats, so you won't likely include multipower cards in a deck, unless they're 1's and 2's.  Gambit and Captan Britain can play a 4 multipower card, but Wolvie and Hulk can't.  And unless you have a team designed to play level 4 multipower cards, you probably won't include one in your deck just for Gambit or Captain Britain.  The 5 multipower is ONLY playable by Apocalypse, I think, so it's wouldn't likely get use at all!  In addition, you get the spectrum balance that they're going for with Gambit, but I still think you're gonna land more hits with Hulk and Wolvie, because low end multipower cards aren't hard to block, but 8's of any type are.  Even combined with doubleshots, as this set permits you to do, there just aren't that many characters to utilize them up to an 8 and 9 point combined capability.  Jubilee can only play a level 2 multipower card, so a 6 is the biggest attack she can make with a multipower doubleshot.  That's not too terribly hard to block.  So the big guns win out again.  But this is just at first glance.  I read the breakdown of the rules and I think it's fresh and neat... so it's worth trying out. 

Someone mentioned the New England rules, and while I don't think this is the same thing, the reference sheet for point totals DOES feel similar, and I'm not a fan of that.  I kinda feel the same about the special rules for battlesites.  I suppose you could reprint each site with its restrictions or each character with a point value on the card, because I don't know how to calculate the value (if the character comes out to 21.7777777 do you round up to 21.8 or down to 21.7?).  The list works fine, but it does add that complication.  Otherwise, I think it would be a neat way to play overpower.  Having a handful of anypower cards would be nice, even with the restrictions on playing other cards with them... at least until you want to play one with a teamwork and can't. 

The battlesite/anyhero changes could work out well, too.  But I have a question.  The PowerBalance rules state:

  "The Battlesite Restriction – The Battlesite Restriction is an OverPower deck-building rule that governs the use of
specials with Battlesites in a Tournament Legal deck. Each special card used with a Battlesite must have a different special
code. Any two specials with the same special code (e.g. AG for Avoid 1 Attack) are considered duplicate and cannot be
included. Only a maximum of twelve (12) specials may be placed into a deck, which may include a single "One Per Deck"
special. Specials must be usable by the basic version of the character listed on the location card – if Storm is listed, then all
specials playable by Storm are usable, but not those playable by "Storm: Neutralized", which would include Morlocks
special cards."

In the regular rules, you can't have duplicate codes on a battlesite anyway.  Other than the Storm example and the number of specials on the battlesite (12), how is this rule different than the regular rule?  Are we no longer using activators?  I wasn't sure if I was missing something about the way battlesites are played.

So these are my first thoughts.  I'm interested to see if doubleshots will be as effective as they seem.  More defense is good, but will we be going to power pack battles more often?  Would the spectrum advantage of well rounded characters make up for their smaller numbers in comparison to the hoss characters?  Are these changes enough to consider building teams based on grids more than on their specials cards?  What else am I missing?  I gotta get some sleep... I've been sitting here for too long. :P  But that's only because I like it.

The effort is much appreciated whichever way the votes go.  I must give that to you, Mr. PowerBalance.  The art is beautiful, genuine in it's feel, and I believe that many will get use out of your card sets, even just for the power cards and the fun new teamworks.:)  I think they will all like Galactus at 24 points better than 27 though... I hope everyone likes the doubleshots!  I know I do. 

TheTrooper - cool to have someone go through it with a fine-tooth comb and so methodically as well! You rock man - that's the kind of constructive input which could further the attempts at balancing this game.

In response to your observations:

1) Multipower cards will get much less use.

Yes! But more correctly, MultiPower cards will be much HARDER to use. As you saw from reading the reasoning behind the the minor changes (http://www.oppowerbalance.net/rules.html (http://www.oppowerbalance.net/rules.html)), this gives opportunity for characters with better "all-round" power grids an advantage.  For example, how can characters like Hydra or New Warriors possibly match up against favourites like Hulk and Wolverine in their current state? They just can't! Restricting power houses like Hulk and Wolverine from using MultiPower cards is only a very small step to trying to minimize this HUGE discrepancy between effectiveness of the characters, but as mentioned it is still just a small step. Why should it be so hard to play level 8 Power cards which contribute to cumulative K.O., but yet so easy to play MultiPower cards which only add to one's spectrum K.O. ability? What benefit do these "all-round" characters get? Shouldn't the ability to play MultiPower cards BE that benefit? Even so, they still only act as any other Power card with regards to duplicates, so the benefit is still small.

There are still MANY characters that can utilize level 4 MultiPower cards, (Alpha Flight, Captain Britian, Captain Mar-Vell, Cyclops, Deathlok, Gambit, just to name a few). As for level 5, there are 5 characters who can play them (Apocalypse, Hydra, New Warriors, Hydra and Team X), making them as rare as the max 8 characters! These characters get a REALLY big benefit from the DoubleShot cards, giving them the ability to create a LEVEL 13 attack/defense, which could block even X-Man's Ultimate Potential!

Isn't it good now that those power houses have one thing less going for them, and have weaker characters have one more thing on their side? Not only that, if you have the ability to play level 4 MultiPower cards, you get two extra cards to play with - a level 4 MultiPower Teamwork and a level 4 DoubleShot card. This gives characters like Hydra and New Warriors an edge they never had before. Yes, they still wouldn't stand up to Wolverine or Hulk, but that's why the new Point Value system has taken care of that.

2) Jubilee can only play a level 2 MultiPower card, so a 6 is the biggest attack she can make with a MultiPower DoubleShot.

Not quite. The DoubleShots allow combination of ANY Power Type Power Card up to level 5 with the DoubleShot card. Since Jubilee's max stat is 6, then if someone could play a DoubleShot on the team, she could still play a level 5 Power Card to add up to 9 (with TWO power types mind you), that even Hulk or Wolverine couldn't block. The whole concept of DoubleShots was to create an attack that even max 8 characters couldn't block with a single Power card, which would tear down their immense defensive capabilities greatly. How funny would it be to see Hulk being beaten by a combination of Jubilee and Hydra, two characters who are so underpowered compared to Hulk? This is when it starts getting interesting, hey? The high attacks have actually proven to make for some REALLY quick games if played carefully. Really starts introducing some heavy mind games with all-round characters now! Hulk and Wolverine doesn't feel so safe anymore, that's for sure!

Not only that, as you pointed out earlier, they now have greater defensive abilities as well since the DoubleShots can now be used as a TWO-PART DEFENSE, maintaining card advantage! How cool is that? Now Teamwork cards aren't the only other card besides Power Cards that really add anything to the game.

3) The Battlesite Restriction

Actually, there is no real change with this at all. I just added it in because going by the last true instruction manual included in Monumental, there was no mention of this, and I just wanted to make newcomers to the game aware of the change, who weren't regular followers of the OverPower Legion newsletter. Sure, The Rules page on the website http://www.oppowerbalance.net (http://www.oppowerbalance.net) looks daunting because it's so long, but in actual fact, there are only very few changes. The page is just long because of the explanations and rationalisation of these small changes!

4) Any-Power cards

Now that Any-Power cards aren't OPD, you can now create a team that doesn't need to match the Power Grids at all. As long as they all have a level 5 or above in their grid (which EVERYONE does), they can start using Any-Power cards. Just use the Any-Power cards as defense, and then use Specials for offense. What an exciting new way to make a team, and also a much better use for Any-Power cards? Imagine a team with Jean Grey, Angel, Colossus and Leader - they all have 7 in their grid, but all in different Power Types. Now they can work together! LOL!

This would create teams that are WAY too poweful, because certain characters have Specials that are WAY too overpowered as they are. *cough*Vertigo*cough* Imagine them all combined together in one devastating team - yipes! As a result, there has to be some sort of compromise, which comes in the form of a lowered Point Value limit.

5) Are these changes enough to consider building teams based on grids more than on their specials cards?

Ooh, I'd hope not! The whole point of this rule system to create a good foundation for balance, but the Specials cards themselves still need to be balanced HEAPS! Which is why I am so proud of the people behind the scenes working on the "Absolute/Ultimate Evil" custom set. They are tackling the imbalance from the Specials perspective, which clearly is a MASSIVE task on its own, whilst still letting the community provide their thoughts. They have been extremely methodical in their attempts to balance but ranking characters into tiers, and trying to fill voids in the characters' abilities, but at the same time, giving heaps of room for creativity. It would be a great day if all attempts to balance the game merged together to form one unified front!

Anyways, feel free to playtest it, and yes, go ahead, find the holes in the system!!! Nothing is perfect the way it is, and hopefully, as a community, we can correct this! If this gets popular enough, we can begin production of a new set which could contain the cards YOU guys think will be necessary to create the balance we're after!

NEW CONDITIONS FOR INHERENT ABILITY OF HOMEBASES:
Avalon - "Avalon's Team may not Venture more than 1 Mission Card per battle."
Blue Area Of The Moon - "Blue Area Of The Moon's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of team is greater than 80."
Four Freedoms Plaza - "Any shifted attack which utilizes Four Freedoms Plaza's Inherent Ability must be defended, and can only be defended by a non-Special card."
Gamma Base - "Gamma Base's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Landau, Luckman & Lake - "Landau, Luckman & Lake's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Madripoor - "Madripoor's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Princess Bar - "Opponent may pick up one additional card for each mission ventured by Princess Bar's Team if Point Value of Team is greater than 80. Discard duplicates."
Sanctum Sanctorum - "Sanctum Sanctorum's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
The Savage Land - "The Savage Land's Team is -2 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
The Sewer - "The Sewer's Team is -4 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
X-Mansion - "X-Mansion's Team is -9 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."

not a fan of those changes
especially avalon

NEW RULE (THE BATTLESITE RESTRICTION):Only a maximum of twelve (12) specials may be placed into a deck, which may include a single "One Per Deck" special.
or this

but i do like the multipower teamworks any power and doubleshots

-6 to venture total seems steep in any case.  -2 should be sufficient, if necessary at all.     

Hey cool - thanks for the input guys! It would certainly be worthwhile giving it a good playtest, and we can find out if those "new conditions" are even necessary at all. I had a playtest myself, and Princess Bar was far too poweful. The Four Freedoms Plaza is actually the condition the official legion put in place, not what I had instated. If you guys find that it's balanced as it is, we can strip the conditions for homebases. Let me know how it goes.

Also, guys, you'll have to hold up on the orders at the moment. I've run out of the handful I've got right now, but will resume taking orders when I get the rest of the sets in. Thanks for the interest so far though!

i like the idea of the multi double shots and tws.   i  also like the idea of restricting multi use, but fear it may be too radically different.  helping these characters is a great idea though, since they are actually HURT by the fact they are well rounded rather than helped.  hydra can't hold a candle to prof x!

off the top of my head, apocalypse/hydra/new warriors can use the 5m.  i assume more can: do you have a list of characters that could use the 5m and 4m?

Breadmaster, glad you like the idea of the MultiPower DoubleShots and Teamwork cards. The restriction of MultiPower use can actually be a great balancing factor, in combination with everything else, because as you mentioned, currently Hydra can't hold a candle to Prof X. However, try creating the best possible deck you can with max-8 characters with the current Point Value system (which will only allow two such characters on a team), and match them against teams that are only max-6 and play MultiPower cards using the new Point Value system as well (especially if you can add just one character who can play 5 MultiPower). If you play very carefully, making clever choices, using the DoubleShot cards to create attacks that cannot be defended by the max-8 characters, the two of the max-8 characters can be taken down fairly quickly (sometimes as quickly as two attacks - a level 11 attack with 5 Multi DS + lvl 6 Power card, then level 9 with level 4 Multi DS + lvl 5 Power card). Sure, it still requires careful play, but it's so refreshing (AND satisfying) to see that it is no longer something special when a group of max-6 characters can beat the most well constructed max-8 teams! Yes, it CAN happen fairly easily, as max-8 characters are definitely NOT ANYWHERE as safe as they used to be. Yes, he may be frickin' Wolverine, but watch him fall. Give it a shot, and you'll see what I mean! I kid you not.

For your reference, here are all the characters who can play 4 MultiPower:

4 Multi Characters
MARVEL
Alpha Flight
Apocalypse (5 Multi)
Beta Ray Bill
Cable
Captain Britain
Captain Mar-vell
Cyclops
Deathlok
Galactus (5 Multi)
Gambit
Green Goblin
Hellfire Club
Human Torch
Hydra (5 Multi)
The Inhumans
Maggot
Mercury
Mr. Sinister
New Warriors (5 Multi)
Sauron (5 Multi)
Sunfire
Super Skrull
Team X (5 Multi)
Thor
Thunderbolts
Vision
Warlock

DC
Batman: Avenger
Batman: Detective
Blue Beetle
Comm. Gorder and the G.C.P.D
Comm. James Gordon
Doctor Polaris
Hawkman
Martian Manhunter
Ra's Al Ghul: Sword Master

Image
Backlash (5 Multi)
Grifter
Malebolgia
Ripclaw
Tiffany

Another list I thought might be very useful to you guys is a list of characters who are only one Artifact Card away from being able to play level 5 MultiPower cards (i.e. all stats except ONE rating are above 5). Using the Artifact card will bring this rating to 7, making them effectively able to play level 5 MultiPower cards. The sheer number of characters who are actually can do this actually make 5 Multi cards VERY MUCH more playable than initially expected.

Experienced players will think Artifact cards are just a waste of a turn, but if the character is sitting in reserve and you actually create a situation where a character is able to play a 5 MultiPower (especially if someone else on the team is already able to play level 4 MultiPower cards), it opens up so many offensive options (created by the new cards in Power Balance) that it actually becomes worthwhile. As mentioned before, the goal was to allow ALL cards in OverPower to be useful, and this was one of the ways we could see Artifact cards actually used competitively. Try this and see as well!

MARVEL
Absorbing Man
Adam Warlock
Angel: Horseman Of Apcalypse
Banshee
Beast
Beta Ray Bill
Black Panther
Cable
Captain Mar-vell
Dark Beast
Deathlok
Doctor Doom: 2099
Doctor Octopus
Dracula
Forge
Ghost Rider
Goblyn Queen
Grey King
Hulk: Mr. Fix-It
Iron Man
Ka-Zar
The Kree
Magneto
Mephisto
Mercury
Morbius
Mystique
Omega Red
Onslaught
Psycho-Man
The Reavers
Scarlet Spider
Scorpion
Sentinels
Shang Chi: Master Of Kung Fu
Silver Surfer
Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Symbiotic Costume
Storm: Bloodstorm
Thor
Thunderbolts
Venom
Vision
Warlock

DC
Aquaman
Bane
Comm. Gorderand and the G.C.P.D
Darkseid
Hazard
Penguin
Wonder Woman

Image
Brass
Malebolgia
Overtkill
Shadowhawk

Thanks for the feedback - glad to hear from someone who is into balancing the game too! I still think the specials is a BIG issue with regards to balance - something that is a whole 'nother ball game. Absolute/Ultimate Evils is definitely a step in the right direction!

Quote from: PowerBalance on February 15, 2013, 08:06:49 AM
... because as you mentioned, currently Hydra can't hold a candle to Prof X. ... Yes, he may be frickin' Wolverine, but watch him fall...

Experienced players will think Artifact cards are just a waste of a turn, but if the character is sitting in reserve and you actually create a situation where a character is able to play a 5 MultiPower (especially if someone else on the team is already able to play level 4 MultiPower cards), it opens up so many offensive options (created by the new cards in Power Balance) that it actually becomes worthwhile. As mentioned before, the goal was to allow ALL cards in OverPower to be useful, and this was one of the ways we could see Artifact cards actually used competitively. Try this and see as well!

Let me start by saying that I've only given the new cards a once-over, and I haven't read the new mechanics in full detail, yet. I am a huge fan of the artwork and general feel to these cards, and so I'm pretty sure I'll end up ordering a set or four  ;)

A few things stood out to me here, though.

1) I get the idea of making the game more balanced, but are there many max-6 characters who SHOULD be able to stand up to Professor X, Spawn, Wolverine, Hulk, Dr.Doom, etc? I mean, there are a few max-6ers whose sum of their grid is clearly better the max of their grid. Gambit has defeated Sabretooth, Hydra has had their victories over Capt America, and I'm sure that Captain Mar-Vell has taken down his share of giant-sized baddies... but should Jubilee and Shadowcat really have a shot against Magneto? I mean, if you are nerfing max-8ers, or building up max-6ers, at a certain point it seems like the Power grids have lost their purpose...

2) Maybe I got the wrong impression, but by the sound of that last quoted paragraph, it seems like you'd be including a 5M in the deck when the only person who could use it would be that one-off character (like Beast)... if that's the case, that's currently a no-no, because every card in your deck must be playable from the start, with no modifications... right?

3) It seems like one of my favorite Homebases gets a lot better under some of these new variations:

DANGER ROOM!!  ;D

What if mulitpower cards had a different discard rule than regular power cards... say level 4multipower cards aren't considered dupes of other level 4 power cards, but ARE dupes of other 4 multipower cards?

Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 15, 2013, 01:55:19 PM
What if mulitpower cards had a different discard rule than regular power cards... say level 4multipower cards aren't considered dupes of other level 4 power cards, but ARE dupes of other 4 multipower cards?

I actually like the multipower restriction/requirements. Frankly, I wish the tactic double shots would have been handled this way in the original game. They are neater and more useful. The character cards and anypower cards and multi-5 are all awesome.  :) I'm curious what BBH thinks about some of these rules.

nic, max 6s aren't really pumped up.  what gets the boost, are characters that have NO stat lower than 4 or 5.  jubilee and shadowcat wouldn't apply

under PBs rules, you can only use a multipower card that is as high as your lowest stat

private e-mail sent. I just need the total price to ship to Alaska (Zip 99577) and a paypal addy and I will pick up a set...

I can't wait to get some good feedback, because at first glance, I think it's a neat idea.  And I too am awaiting BBH's assessment.  Where's he at?

Read through most of the site and was wondering how you arrived at the stats for the various characters. Not that I have a problem with any of them, but having seen so many other homemade characters its just something that interests me.  For instance I've seen Abominantion with a an identical grid to Thing, with a 7 fighting, and of course your version.  I suppose its all subjective, but as you were so 'scientific' with some of your other reasoning I wondered if something similar was applied to the character stats.

Ncannelora, thanks for the input! You've raised some good questions! Hopefully I can help to clarify:

1) Should Jubilee and Shadowcat really have a shot against Magneto?

Ha ha - I guess I haven't really explained it very clearly at the moment. The goal wasn't really to make max-6 characters beat max-8 characters, and I think my previous posts may have been trying to illustrate this. What I mean is that people who have equivalent point values, should ideally have the same effectiveness. The problem is a max-8 character with the same point value as a character with max-6 always has the advantage, and a large advantage at that. The goal of OverPower: Power Balance was just to make it so that the characters with equivalent point values could actually be a match for each other in some way. This was done by introducing new cards and introducing a mathematically derived point value, which actually takes into account all cards they can play (including new cards produced for Power Balance) and their overall offensive and defensive capability. As I mentioned on the website, this was a HUGE task, so I actually paid a mathematician to do this for me, but just with me as guidance.

Jubilee still doesn't have a chance against Magneto, and this is reflected in her point value (Jubilee = 15.0, Magneto = 25.6).

What I was really trying to say was that now that max-8 characters cost more, and max 6s who can be quite effective are given a higher Point Value, it is now possible to create a team of effective max-6s who can MATCH a team of characters that include max-8 characters, provided both teams adhere to the Point Value rule. They won't ALWAYS win, but have a much better chance. In an ideal world, a team of well constructed teams of equivalent point value should each have a 50% chance of winning. I hope I haven't confused people even more! LOL!

2) Every card in your deck must be playable from the start, with no modifications, right?

You might be right about this. Can anyone else comment on this? Does that mean Dazzler's Longshot Love doesn't allow you to include Longshot special cards unless Longshot is actually on the team?

3) It seems like one of my favorite Homebases gets a lot better under some of these new variations - DANGER ROOM!

Yes, it does. People should actually try playing with some of the Homebase teams that couldn't be played before. It really is quite refreshing to play a previously non-viable Homebase team and now actually have it be competitive (well, in some cases). Give it a try anyway! LOL! You'll at least get to see teams used now that weren't used before!

TheTrooper27, you've got a lot of good ideas! Making MultiPower Power cards different with regards to discarding was an idea we had played with, but found that it would only benefit people who could play MultiPower cards and not people who had good all-round values in 3 stats, but not the 4th. It may be something to consider if the game is still not balanced though, but at the moment, it seems playable. Give it a test and let me know though!

CoS, thanks for your interest. Unfortunately, I won't be getting the next batch in until next Friday, but I'll get back to you as soon as I get them in. I promise!

Nostalgic, thanks for your comments as well! Actually, the Power Grids were largely determined from either the Official Marvel Website (they have a power grid rating on most characters) together with what other people had made previously. A select few were modified to meet the requirements of the game, like Sauron.

Quote from: PowerBalance on February 16, 2013, 02:46:50 AMTheTrooper27, you've got 2) Every card in your deck must be playable from the start, with no modifications, right?

You might be right about this. Can anyone else comment on this? Does that mean Dazzler's Longshot Love doesn't allow you to include Longshot special cards unless Longshot is actually on the team?

And the answer is...

Meta #102 Specials which grant the ability to play with certain Special cards do not alter which Special cards can be placed in your deck. The only Character-specific Special cards which can be placed in your deck are for the 4 Characters on your team. You may not put in Specials for non-team members in anticipation of making them playable via another Special.

Quote from: PowerBalance on February 16, 2013, 02:46:50 AMNostalgic, thanks for your comments as well! Actually, the Power Grids were largely determined from either the Official Marvel Website (they have a power grid rating on most characters) together with what other people had made previously. A select few were modified to meet the requirements of the game, like Sauron.

Sorry if I missed this elsewhere, but under your rules for multi power cards couldn't Ghost Rider use a level four 3-stat multi power card since his intellect wouldn't be a factor?

Ah hah! Good work Nostalgic. Well, at least we know that strategy is not viable, using the Artifact card that way - althought I guess it would still be useful if there was one other character on your team able to play a 5 Multi. Let's try and find more holes in the system to see if there is anything that has been overlooked, and the rectify any issues that may still be present!

Ha ha - Nostalgic, you really are thinking, hey? During analysis, Power Balance faced an issue when trying to match use of 3-stat characters with 4-stat characters, as a result of the use of the 3 icon MultiPower card. Issues brought up were:
1) Could 4-stat characters use 3-icon MultiPower cards if they had stats high enough in Energy, Fighting and Strength?
2) The 3 icon MultiPower still functions as a fifth Power Type, since it acts just like, and fuses with, a 4-icon MultiPower card, so is just as effective as a 4-icon. Should it really have a different requirement to play?
3) If they were just as effective, should they be playable by 3-stat characters at all?
4) How would you calculate for character effectiveness taking all previously described factors into account?
The mathematician said it we weren't really comparing like with like, and there were so many confounding factors. I ended up deciding to not allow 3-stat characters to fight alongside 4-stat characters for this reason. I understand many people would not like it, but I wasn't able to come up witha solution. Suggestions, anyone?

OP:P B - so if you paid a 1) mathematician 2) commissioned artist and 3) printer what interest would you have in commissioning an amazing web programer to allow us to have a web-based Overpower game that we could play from any web-accessible device? I know that I would be interested in helping defray the programmer's costs and that Bios is actually talking with a programmer who has an established track record in implementing "dead" ccg into a vibrant online community.

Check this link for Decipher's Lord of the Rings CCG fully implemented web based play (tournaments, league, merchant, foil subset, promo cards etc.)  You will have to register to check out all the cool features but the deckbuilder and exporter of decklists and ability to watch and comment on others games as well as post "game replay links" is SO COOL!

http://www.gempukku.com/gemp-lotr/

PowerBalance -

First of all, I get what you're saying then, about a max-6 squaring off against a max-8. So, it's not that EVERY max-6 should be closer to the levels of a max-8, only that SOME should get closer. That makes sense. I guess I'll just have to actually read your website  :-[
on the plus-side, I plan on ordering at LEAST 1 set. I'll certainly give everything a thorough review then  ;)

Quote from: breadmaster on February 15, 2013, 05:42:33 PM
nic, max 6s aren't really pumped up.  what gets the boost, are characters that have NO stat lower than 4 or 5.  jubilee and shadowcat wouldn't apply

under PBs rules, you can only use a multipower card that is as high as your lowest stat

I got that, but the impression I was getting was that the boosts were more than just in the Multi's.

On that note, this is actually the revision I am the MOST interested in implimenting. Honestly, as I teach the game to my kids (as I'm actually doing now  8)), I might actually adopt this anyway! HAHA!!

Quote from: ncannelora on February 16, 2013, 02:10:28 PM

Quote from: breadmaster on February 15, 2013, 05:42:33 PM
nic, max 6s aren't really pumped up.  what gets the boost, are characters that have NO stat lower than 4 or 5.  jubilee and shadowcat wouldn't apply

under PBs rules, you can only use a multipower card that is as high as your lowest stat

I got that, but the impression I was getting was that the boosts were more than just in the Multi's.

On that note, this is actually the revision I am the MOST interested in implimenting. Honestly, as I teach the game to my kids (as I'm actually doing now  8)), I might actually adopt this anyway! HAHA!!

I really like that too. I also like the simplified double shots and that they can combine with a 1-5 power card for an attack or defense similar reason. (max 6ers giving the 8s something to think about..  ;))I'm not sure about the mechanic of allowing the doubleshot to separate out into 2 defensive actions since you also have to alter how multiple attacks from  teamwork/ally cards are played. (simultaneously as opposed to consecutively)

Ironically, back in highschool we used to lay all the attacks down from a teamwork simultaneously because we didn't know the difference.  I know for a fact it makes the games longer because you get always pick the most optimum response from your hand to defend with. When you have to respond to each attack without knowing what's comming next its easier to create an imbalance or a surprise KO.

Quote from: Nostalgic on February 16, 2013, 02:41:52 PM
I really like that too. I also like the simplified double shots and that they can combine with a 1-5 power card for an attack or defense similar reason. (max 6ers giving the 8s something to think about..  ;))I'm not sure about the mechanic of allowing the doubleshot to separate out into 2 defensive actions since you also have to alter how multiple attacks from  teamwork/ally cards are played. (simultaneously as opposed to consecutively)

Ironically, back in highschool we used to lay all the attacks down from a teamwork simultaneously because we didn't know the difference.  I know for a fact it makes the games longer because you get always pick the most optimum response from your hand to defend with. When you have to respond to each attack without knowing what's comming next its easier to create an imbalance or a surprise KO.

I was a little iffy on the spitting defense with doubleshots for exactly the same reason, and also, back in the day, me and my friends used to play all of our teamwork attacks at once, as well as any chain attacks from AA's and so forth.  The reason was because of DB specials... which reads "avoid all attacks from 1 teamwork card" and we figured that meant you had to make them all at once.  DB's were totally awesome in this case, and we didn't play many teamworks because of it.  I think this, too would be an issue with Power Balance, because you would have to make all of your teamwork attacks at once, and I would prefer making them one at a time.  Teamworks are kind of a big deal, and tho there aren't many DB specials, there is one for any hero, and The Outback is a popular battlesite already, and much better with this rule in effect.  So I'm not totally sold on the play all teamwork attacks at once part, but other than that, I'm liking Power Balance more and more as I read... just need to play with someone.  If only there were someone to play cards with around here!

CoS, funny you mention it, as I was hoping for something similar as well. Because the cards are so hard to collect now, newcomers who could potentially be interested in the game wouldn't have any real way to get into it. Unless there was a web based program!

I had already started trying to document the rules of the game in a more procedural manners facilitate production of something like this, as programmers need things to be very clear cut - http://www.oppowerbalance.net/rulebook.pdf (http://www.oppowerbalance.net/rulebook.pdf). This project could be VERY expensive though, especially if we really wanted it to look professional. Anyway, worth a think and perhaps a new discussion topic to gauge level of interest from the rest of the community.

Ncannelora, that's cool you're teaching the kids to play. OverPower lives into the next generation! Yeah!

Nostalgic, yeah, admittedly, it can be difficult to accept changes with regard to way things are played. I do think it really does balance the overwhelming power of teamwork cards with what DoubleShots are capable of now. Surprisingly, the games now actually still last the same duration, because DoubleShots played cleverly can potentially make the games really short since K.O.s can happen within just two lethal moves that are much harder to block! In any case, feel free to give me your feedback as you may have a different experience!

TheTrooper24, ha ha, yes, I did come across the same thing with regard to the "Avoid all attacks from a Teamwork card"! Now the card works as it says - all attacks made with the teamwork card are avoided with just that one special, but we can make it so that it only avoids attacks made ON THE CHARACTER who played the card, since the special doesn't say "teammate" may avoid all attacks from 1 teamwork card. As a result, if you know someone has one of these DB specials, split your teamwork attacks up to be made on different characters, so the effect of this card is minimsed. It does instill a little fear in people playing Teamwork cards, especially those max-8s who rely on Teamwork cards to score the lower level Power Cards for spectrum K.O.! Again, please feel free to give it a test, and let me know.

i love playing in leagues (special formats) as well as tournaments. of course the prizes are virtual packs to add to your "my card" collections. you can always play casual games using "all cards". this way people don't just play with all the power house characters in tournaments and leagues as you need to accumulate your collection by opening packs :)

Hey guys, just a quick update on the shipping situation - another small batch will be arriving by air on Friday (or next Monday at the latest). Those who have already contacted me will have sets reserved for them. There will still be two more sets that will be available before the bigger batch arrives in 2 1/2 weeks by sea, so if you want a copy before having to wait another 2 1/2 weeks, please let me know so I can hold it aside for you. Thanks everyone!

I got my cards today. They look and feel like the real thing lol.

Nice!

i might have to get 2 sets rather than 1 if i want to play with the new rules and have more than one deck....

Garose, thanks for the feedback. Which cards did you like in particular? What were your thoughts on the box/instruction manual?

CoS, I has definitely set one aside for you in this batch, but not quite sure if I will still have another one available. I'll certainly get back to you shortly though!

How many sets will you be able to have made, Mr. PowerBalance?  Is this a train that we need to hop on right now, or should I rush my orders before it's too late???

TheTrooper27, no no, there will be enough when the batch after the next comes in in 2 weeks time. All I'm saying is if you want them earlier, then you can get them in this next batch which is coming on Friday (although someone has snatched up the last two - you know who you are!). There will be plenty more in 2 weeks time, but just means you'll have to wait a little longer to get them. ;)

Cool... I need a little more time to round up some $$. Between the Buffalo Trip and the Carrie Underwood tickets I got for my girlfriend, dough is running low. :'( ;D

Quote from: PowerBalance on February 19, 2013, 04:10:59 PM
Garose, thanks for the feedback. Which cards did you like in particular? What were your thoughts on the box/instruction manual?

The artwork on the character cards is brilliant and looks like they were done by pros. I always love seeing good custom cards especially the character ones.

The crib box is a nice touch and makes the whole package feel like they were actually produced by Marvel.

I like the inclusion of the accidental inserts that were not reprinted in the X-Men OP set. I was half expecting them to be a bit "fuzzy". Which would have been a bit of a letdown.

In truth I can't fault the cards or the chosen artwork at all. Although I would have liked two of each card without buying an additional set and ending up with additional OPDs and Character cards. Maybe the additional cards could be added to the next set of cards.

I don't get to play OP so I don't think I am in a position to comment on the PB rules. I don't see any harm in creating new or tweaked rules provided that the original rules can still be applied to the new cards.

I would be happy to help out looking for images, naming special cards or suggesting cards to include for the next set.

G.

Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 20, 2013, 08:02:56 AM
Cool... I need a little more time to round up some $$. Between the Buffalo Trip and the Carrie Underwood tickets I got for my girlfriend, dough is running low. :'( ;D

you don't gotta lie to kick it; we know who's really wantin' to see Carrie  :P

Quote from: ncannelora on February 20, 2013, 11:07:40 AM

Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 20, 2013, 08:02:56 AM
Cool... I need a little more time to round up some $$. Between the Buffalo Trip and the Carrie Underwood tickets I got for my girlfriend, dough is running low. :'( ;D

you don't gotta lie to kick it; we know who's really wantin' to see Carrie  :P

LOL exactly what I thought when I read it. Now I got to go set my DVR to record the Oscars...for my girlfiend. ;)

Garose, thanks for the detailed review. Much appreciated. Also, that's great that you would be interested in helping out with the next revision of Power Balance, even if only for the artwork side of things. It can be difficult to find high enough quality artwork and in the same style as the official cards, so any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

TheTrooper27, ha ha, yes, money always gets a little more tight when you have a partner! No rush - just let me know when you want your sets, and I'll be happy to accomodate. Obviously, I do have a finite supply, but there should be enough to go round!

so, I've now thoroughly read through this revision. while I can't say for sure, until I get my sets and play it out, I'm feeling very conflicted! LOL

Positive Impressions*
• Multipower Power card restriction, requiring it playable in all types
• Multipower Power card now able to be used as needed type for specific uses (e.g. w/AE Specials)
• New KO standards for Battlesites

Negative Impressions*
• Sum Deck penalty based on the inclusion of Any-Power cards.
• Homebases acting as Battlesites when using Any Hero cards.
• Homebases disallowed from using variant character cards.
• Homebases having re-written Inherent Abilities.

Undecided Impressions*
• New valuation of Characters.
• Follow-up attacks made together.

*Impressions subject to change with no notice  ;D

Ncannelora, awesome. Thanks for posting your impressions - I can see you've got your analytical hat on!

-----
In response to your negative impressions, hopefully I can clarify things to help explain the "why" behind the rule changes:

1) Sum Deck penalty based on the inclusion of Any-Power cards - The beauty of Any-Power cards not being OPDs is that you can pretty much put ANY team of characters you want together. Previously, there needed to be some correlation between the Power Grids of your selected characters, sharing useable cards for defense. This would limit what Specials could be included in your deck.

Sure, it's great that Any-Power cards actually are a lot more useful now because of the rule change, but this opens up a big imbalance issue. You could just put all the characters with the most powerful specials together, making a monstrously overpowered team. The goal of Power Balance was to bring balance, and this would definitely not be balanced at all. There had to be some kind of trade off, well, more than simply not being able to use MultiPower cards and the inherent reduction of Spectrum ability by using Any-Power cards.

I had the statistician look over the combinations and permutations of shared usable cards when using Any-Power cards vs cards that require specific Power Type ratings to use, and it was calculated that approximately 76 (+/-1.5 point value for 1 standard deviation) was appropriate. (I can't remember the exact numbers honestly.) Again, statistics don't equate to real gameplay, which is why thorough playtesting would be required to verify these numbers.

2) Homebases acting as Battlesites when using Any Hero cards - I think I know what you meant, but just to clarify - the homebase itself doesn't act as a Battlesite, but you need a separate Battlesite (Marvel Manhattan, Marvel Universe, Team OverPower) to use the Any Hero cards. The reasoning for this was two-fold: a) Battlesites are now easier to K.O., so it's easier to stop people playing Activators than Any Hero cards, b) Any-Hero cards are already so powerful, especially with Power Leech and DoW, and the disadvantage that Activators get from easier K.O. would create imbalance.

Remember back in the day, the official Legion back in the day had to introduce errata just to bring Power Leech back to a useable state. Even now there are so many posts on this forum figuring out ways to balance DoW. Imagine just K.O.ing the Battlesite to stop DoW and Power Leech? Now attacking the Battlesite actually has a purpose! Can be game-changing - and this could bring that extra dimension to OverPower.

3) Homebases disallowed from using variant character cards / Homebases having re-written Inherent Abilities - This was only because some of the combinations you could pick could be far too powerful under the new system.

Admittedly, this is probably the area of Power Balance that has been least thought-out. Everything else was calculated like crazy, taking into account countless permutations and combinations, crunching heaps of numbers to generate the final outcome. This part was just a simple comparison of Point Values of homebases to normal teams, so I have to say this could be an area that still needs refinement. This would require a fair bit of playtesting to see. I couldn't keep the statistician on board any longer, as I had already reached my budget with him. If people could playtest this in detail, we could fine tune this ourselves without the help of a statistician!
-----

Understandably, people will feel initially very conflicted when changes are introduced. Remember the first time they introduced Event cards? It was like "What? This isn't OverPower anymore!". Then shortly after, all of a sudden, it felt like they re-invented the whole game with IQ having a fourth stat. Then the game changed MASSIVELY when they introduced the location cards, having a new thing/mechanic to learn. Each of those changes were hugely game-changing and took time to get used to. The changes introduced in Power Balance are actually very minor in comparison to the official expansions released.

In any case, those who are game enough to try the new system out (which it seems a lot of you are!!), let me know. Seemingly, everyone here is very methodical and analytical - it shouldn't be a great challenge to rectify balance issues as a collective group!

well, I should note that the Any-Power thing only bugs me a little. it's easy to imagine that I'd get used to it just like I got used to the different Sum Deck totals allowed for level16 decks at 76, level 15 decks at 72, and on down. it IS very appealing to get a blended team together, since that's how the Xmen are built  ;D

for the Any-Hero-Battlesite, here's my main issue:
when using AnyHero cards, having Team Overpower as a Homebase is almost an absolute MUST, because getting the wrong Any Hero too soon is almost worse than not getting it at all (like getting the BQ in hand1, UGH!)... so, would I be using Team Overpower as a Homebase, and then just throwing Marvel Universe up front as a Battlesite, ONLY to give my opponent a target, then? or, would Team Overpower be acting as BOTH Battlesite and Homebase?

as for the variants issue, it particularly bothers me with XWorld, where the characters' variants are THE reason for the Homebase. same with Storm being on the Morlock Tunnels site (pro'ly others, too). also, there was a very long stretch where Angel retained much of his Death abilities while enlisted with the Xmen, so why shouldn't he be able to be used in the Danger Room? you know?

Ncannelora,

QuoteI be using Team Overpower as a Homebase, and then just throwing Marvel Universe up front as a Battlesite, ONLY to give my opponent a target, then?

Yep, you're absolutely correct. If Marvel Universe got K.O.'d, then you could no longer play any "Any Hero/Character" cards.

Since it is so much easier to stop Activator cards from being played now that Battlesites are easier to K.O., "Any Hero/Character" cards get a bigger advantage, and this was a way to balance it. Finally, there is always the complaint that DoW is too powerful against Activators, so this was another method to try and stop it without having to introduce a new custom card or introducing erratas.

Quoteas for the variants issue, it particularly bothers me with XWorld, where the characters' variants are THE reason for the Homebase. same with Storm being on the Morlock Tunnels site (pro'ly others, too). also, there was a very long stretch where Angel retained much of his Death abilities while enlisted with the Xmen, so why shouldn't he be able to be used in the Danger Room? you know?

Regarding the variants thing, you make really good solid points actually. Which is why I always welcome people's thoughts on things. Could I perhaps request your assistance to help balance the Homebases? I think your knowledge could help immensely in this department.

Would anyone else be able to assist here as well?

Quote from: ncannelora on February 20, 2013, 08:31:58 PM
so, I've now thoroughly read through this revision. while I can't say for sure, until I get my sets and play it out, I'm feeling very conflicted! LOL

Positive Impressions*
• Multipower Power card restriction, requiring it playable in all types

not a fan of that
colossus and many others agree with me

I received my set today (along with a free set of Marvels from OP Legion) and these are some really nice cards. They look like a lost set of official OP cards, I really like everything about them. The box and instructions are also very nice, and I like how the set was sealed like an old starter deck.

I'll test out the cards this weekend, but I strongly encourage the group to pick up at least one set. The new characters that fill in the missing gaps in location cards, the multi-5 and anypower 8 that feature Marvel artwork and don't cost $35-45 each to build a competitive deck are reason enough alone, even if one were to ignore the revised Power Balance rules. I like the multipower teamwork cards, just the type of card I was looking for in regards to my own personal OP rules revision.

The quality of the cards are equal to that of the Marvels set Jack released. The Power Balance cards utilize the same backing as an official Marvel card and really have the feel of a 'lost' OP set. Each new character has one special card and perhaps we can adopt the new characters and their single special with the Absolute Evil set that is currently being 'brainstormed' and complete the remaining specials to make these new characters playable on a team, etc. Just an idea to consider.

Quote from: TGW on February 22, 2013, 02:15:02 PM
I received my set today (along with a free set of Marvels from OP Legion) and these are some really nice cards. They look like a lost set of official OP cards, I really like everything about them. The box and instructions are also very nice, and I like how the set was sealed like an old starter deck.

I'll test out the cards this weekend, but I strongly encourage the group to pick up at least one set. The new characters that fill in the missing gaps in location cards, the multi-5 and anypower 8 that feature Marvel artwork and don't cost $35-45 each to build a competitive deck are reason enough alone, even if one were to ignore the revised Power Balance rules. I like the multipower teamwork cards, just the type of card I was looking for in regards to my own personal OP rules revision.

The quality of the cards are equal to that of the Marvels set Jack released. The Power Balance cards utilize the same backing as an official Marvel card and really have the feel of a 'lost' OP set. Each new character has one special card and perhaps we can adopt the new characters and their single special with the Absolute Evil set that is currently being 'brainstormed' and complete the remaining specials to make these new characters playable on a team, etc. Just an idea to consider.

They sound great but I'm not in until Jack says these are an official, unofficial set! :o

TGW, thanks heaps for the incredibly detailed overview! Much appreciated. A lot of effort went into really making it feel indistinguishable from the real thing, so I'm wrapped to hear that you feel it's like a 'lost' official OverPower set. I'm thinking of uploading a video onto YouTube so people can see firsthand the cards and box, as you so well described in your post. It's such a good feeling holding the cards in your hand!

If I can get enough of these sets out there just to cover the cost of my initial outlay, I'd love to begin work on an extension to Power Balance with the same extremely high quality production, could include any cards the OverPower community felt was required.

Glad you're able to play test it as well TGW. I really look forward to your feedback. Again, a lot pf effort was put in here as well - fingers crossed the fee of the statistician was worth it here! (I guess if it doesn't work out, the cards could still be just used with normal rules anyway, LOL!)

EDIT: Just an update on the next batch - should be in my hands on Monday, so I'll definitely process everyone's orders then. Again, thanks for your patience!

Quote from: KObossy on February 22, 2013, 03:36:04 PMThey sound great but I'm not in until Jack says these are an official, unofficial set! :o

not to be mean but why would his opinion matter so much to you? just buy/play with them if you want to play with them. this isn't even his forum, i barely found out he isn't even a moderator on here.

its up to the small groups that play to enable or disable cards.

clearly jack's mission statement/philosophy on overpower is to make the game as finished as possible while still keeping all the rules as close to possible. he expresses interest in getting the cards out there that won't ruin the market and keeping the game as close as intended.

you wanna play with jack's 8 multi? make sure your opponent knows.
you wanna play with Angel using the X-Men Angel AD special? same thing.

jack'll never approve these because the whole point of these is to mix the game up a little, no offense PB.

PB, you wanted to make something and you did it, its more than im doing. im making a few new cards and such. but you really went for it, your love of the game really shows.

i'd love to have a set but $25 for 48 cards is a little steep for me. perhaps you can do a batch of the rare/favored cards somewhere down the line, a "facsimile" set?

somewhere i wanted to talk about legion from facebook, he clearly loves the game too and is doing just as much as jack and PB honestly.
he wants to change the location rosters and boost some of the crappy normal specials and give them away. that's cool.

we all play the game because we want to, not because one guy's opinion on what is acceptable.

I agree with BasiliskFang - if you enjoy the way any version of OverPower is played, then go ahead and enjoy it. Why should someone else dictate how you have fun? Remember, at the end of the day, it is a game afterall.

Power Balance was never intended to be accepted by everyone in the OverPower community. That's a given anyway - life would be pretty boring if everyone thought the same way. Power Balance was only intended to provide sustenance to the OverPower community, by giving them something to be excited about, whether that be via new rules to provide balance and have characters used that previously could not be used, or whether that be just via new cards to play with (for those who have no intention to play with changed rules). I'd hate to dictate how someone plays OverPower - but if others could get half the fun I got out of this custom expansion, then my work is done.

Realistically, I'd love to be able to provide the cards free to the whole OverPower community. The only issue is - and I'm being completely transparent here - I spent thousands of dollars paying commissioned artists, graphic designers, printers and statisticians on this project. Quality doesn't come cheap! If you want something done right, you have to pay for it! I don't believe I'll ever be able to recuperate the losses, charging $25 per set, let alone any cheaper than that! Hopefully Power Balance will be successful enough for the outlay to be partially compensated for, so that new cards of similar quality can be produced, and once again provided to benefit the OverPower community.

An interesting take on the game!  Some of the new mechanics seem very usable even with the original system.  Great Work!

A question for PowerBalance: 
On your site you list the formula for calculating new Point Values for each character.  What defines x (stat value exponential), w (stat category weighting), m (stat category exponential modifier), and a (adjustment factor)?  [I'd like to evaluate other homemade characters to see where they would fit in with the new scheme of play.]  Are they fixed numbers, or calculated from other equations based on .... whatever?  I'm no statistical wizard, but i'm not afraid of math.  Care to share?  (Hopefully this isn't "Proprietary Information".)

Quote from: justa on February 23, 2013, 01:04:36 PM
An interesting take on the game!  Some of the new mechanics seem very usable even with the original system.  Great Work!

A question for PowerBalance: 
On your site you list the formula for calculating new Point Values for each character.  What defines x (stat value exponential), w (stat category weighting), m (stat category exponential modifier), and a (adjustment factor)?  [I'd like to evaluate other homemade characters to see where they would fit in with the new scheme of play.]  Are they fixed numbers, or calculated from other equations based on .... whatever?  I'm no statistical wizard, but i'm not afraid of math.  Care to share?  (Hopefully this isn't "Proprietary Information".)

Indeed.

And also, I'm enjoying the work on this forum with the community's homemade's and the Power Balance rules.  The variety of new and available cards is really giving me alot to be excited about.  I will prepay for another set if Jack and Sean decided to print another, and I would prepay for the next Power Balance expansion.  What I love most is that NEW STUFF is coming out.  Small sets would be awesome.  10 new characters, a few loose specials, different franchises even (TMNT, Street Fighter).  I think the prices of each is really pretty good, considering a pack of Magic the Gathering cards is $4.99 retail price in most department stores, if not more.  I get a complete set of Power Balance for $25, I forget how much the Marvels were (but they weren't expensive by ANY means... I would've paid more!) and Jack and Sean really had the right idea by allowing multiples of nonOPD's in their sets to allow people an accurate count of cards for deck building per set.  I think Mr. Power Balance will make note of this with his expansion (which I hope you're already brainstorming about sir). 

For my money, on BOTH fronts, I couldn't be more satisfied.  Thank you everyone who keeps this awesome game alive.  Even comics arent' as much fun as OverPower.

Quote from: thetrooper27 on February 24, 2013, 02:00:05 AM

Jack and Sean really had the right idea by allowing multiples of nonOPD's in their sets to allow people an accurate count of cards for deck building per set.

I know I mentioned this on my feedback on the PB OP set but is there any chance in being able to order a set of cards consisting of an extra 1 of each of the non-OPD specials & one each of the Tactic, Power and Teamwork cards - (32 cards)?

Justa, awesome - we have a mathematical and analytical mind here. The values of the modifiers are (rounded to 2 decimal places)
x - 1.75
w - 1.80
m - 1.80
a - 1.60
They were derived by plotting a graph of all the things defined in "The Rules" section of the webpage, to create a curve that matches these points as closely as possible. The final formula actually took the primary stat value first, then quaternary, then secondary, then tertiary (i.e. in different order from the formula listed there). The adjustment factor (a) was basically applied to allow the mean, mode and median point values to be equal to 20, so as to allow 4 average characters to fit on a team. So, if you pick someone slightly better than average, it's gotta give somewhere else. I hope I explained it as clearly as possible, as I'm not really a statistician, but did try to understand it as best I could when he showed me his work.

Thetrooper27, glad to hear you are excited about this. It's people like you who give us the drive to keep making new things for the game. It's a good feeling seeing people respond positively to things you put a lot of effort into.

Garose74, unfortunately the cards have actually all already been pre-printed, so the only way to get extra copies is to order another set. To those wondering why I didn't pront multiple copies of non-OPDs in the same deck was because I needed to meet the printers minimum order quantity (those in the production industry would be familiar with this concept). For the printers to make such high quality products, they can't just print a small amount. Even if they did print a smaller amount, the cost would be the same as printing a larger amount. As a result, printing multiple copies of the same card in each deck but printing fewer copies of each deck itself would require me to charge twice to three times the cost for one deck. This ultimately works out the same for people who need more than one of each card anyways! LOL! But at least this way, if you don't need multiple copies (since not everyone does!), you don't have to pay more. Hope that makes sense!

We got our sets as well. I agree that the quality is great: I cant tell them from the real cards :)

I've already used some of the characters in my battlesites. I think we might integrate the multi-power card use rule, but I don't know if we'll use the new hero ranking system right now.

Thanks again. I will probably order another couple sets when they are available.

These cards look incredible.  I'm definitely looking to purchase a set or two myself, as soon as I can get some opponents to play against.  le sigh.  lol

Skeletaur, thanks for your appraisal of the cards. Much appreciated.

Demacus, ha ha, yes, OverPower does need another party to play with! Definitely hit me up if you'd like a copy - I guarantee you won't be disappointed!

Just for information, the whole second batch has been dispatched, so all people who have placed orders should be receiving them shortly. Feel free to get in touch with me now if you want copies, as the next batch will be coming in very shortly!

I FINALLY got my two sets today. I thought they got lost in the post, but they came today. :) All I can say is WOW. The box looks so good with the cello wrapping. The character cards are just sooooo good. They look so real, I can't believe how real they look. I almost think that these were cards that were supposed to be in Overpower but they didn't make them. Next to my other character cards, I really can't tell which one is real. I really like them. :) The teamwork cards are a bit strange, but I like the missing insert cards and power cards. The back even has the proper image. I haven't tried the rules yet. I might give them a test in the next few days.

Can you PLEASE make more of these cards? More CHARCTERS please. And more SPECIALS. But definitely more CHARCTERS please.

Kenshin, glad to hear you have received them.

I'm glad you like the cards so much, and thanks for your feedback. As mentioned, I did spend a fair bit of time searching for a commissioned artist who could replicate the character card images as closely as possible. I think it's also the little things done by the graphics designer that really make the card though, like the way it is shaded and the redrawn icons and white haze.

I am definitely keen on making more specials for the location card characters, as well as finishing off the missing Aspect cards and Intellect Universe cards as well. New character cards could definitey be a possibility too - any characters in particular you were interested in? Ideally, I'd like to collaborate with the guys behind Absolute Evils as they have similar ideas, providing they are willing to do so. Otherwise, I'm still happy to produce the necessary cards for you guys if you wish. Watch this space!

How mch longer until you will be out of stock completely?  With the Buffalo event coming up, I won't have the extra cash till probably around the first of April, but I would still like to order a few sets from you.

Ok, even though I passed off the rules initially, my brother who I play with INSISTED we give them a shot, so ended up playing with the new rules for the past week. You know what? Surprisingly - the rules actually work. Most of them anyway.

I tried making the teams that worked really well for me before, like with Wolverine and Sabretooth. After I started making the teams, I realised how the balance works. After putting both Wolverine and Sabretooth on the team, I couldn't actually fit any other level 7 or level 8 characters on the team anymore. I HAD to put two level 6 character on the team. Originally, this really annoyed me, but after playing with these level 6 characters that I have never played with EVER before, it really started to grow on me.

My brother than came up with teams that had mostly level 6 characters and could play with your new multi power rule and make use of all your new double shot cards. He made Apocalypse, Green Goblin, Vision and Lizard who is a new character. He lost to start off with, but after he knew how to use the double shot cards, and those really strange multi power teamwork cards, he actually started winning. We've now tried so many other combinations and we've now been playing with all these characters we never EVER used before. I haven't really tried the any power stuff yet, but am looking forward to it.

I think your battlesite rule doesn't make any difference really. Both of us still don't attack the battlesite, so I don't really find it's a useful change. It doesn't even make a difference using the any hero cards either.

But overall, it actually seems to work. I really like using the characters I couldn't use before, and actually have them win. It would be actually good to play a game against YOU Power Balance, since you came up with the rules, and see what you can do with the cards!

TheTrooper - Sure, I fully understand a tight financial situation. We've all been there before. Don't wait too long to obtain them once the next batch comes in, as if I do run out, I'd have to print a whole new batch again, and meet minimum requirements all over again. LOL.

Kenshin - Awesome! Great to hear you've had so much success with the new rules. I'd love to hear your ideas for other decks that you've created, so I can play test them myself. Some others who have also play tested the cards have given me a fair bit to think about, and even opened up new strategy ideas too.

The new Battlesites rules can be a benefit to the game. If you do have a team heavy on Activators, destroying the Battlesites can give you a real advantage. The introduction of Venture contribution to Hits on the Battlesite also give further incentive to attack it. Even being able to stop DoW and Power Leech before it comes out with people using Any Hero cards can be worthwhile. Give it a try and you'll see what I mean.

Ha ha - well, I guess, technically, you're only a 4-5 hour plane flight from me. Definitely happy to play with you - look me up if you're in the area!

Quote from: ncannelora on February 20, 2013, 08:31:58 PM
so, I've now thoroughly read through this revision. while I can't say for sure, until I get my sets and play it out, I'm feeling very conflicted! LOL

Positive Impressions*
• Multipower Power card restriction, requiring it playable in all types
• Multipower Power card now able to be used as needed type for specific uses (e.g. w/AE Specials)
• New KO standards for Battlesites

Negative Impressions*
• Sum Deck penalty based on the inclusion of Any-Power cards.
• Homebases acting as Battlesites when using Any Hero cards.
• Homebases disallowed from using variant character cards.
• Homebases having re-written Inherent Abilities.

Undecided Impressions*
• New valuation of Characters.
• Follow-up attacks made together.

*Impressions subject to change with no notice  ;D

Here's a little more expansion on my impression, having played a few more games with the set (albeit against myself, but it allowed a little more controlled testing, maybe).

I made two Homebase decks; Department H was Any Heroes and Danger Room was Battlesite (X-World). With the DeptH team, I focused on Teamwork card attacks, since it's already good at them and that was a significant change to the rules. With the Danger Room deck, I focused on combines (AE and DoubleShots) because, again, it can be a strength for the team (given that Gambit and Iceman have them, plus one from the Battlesite). Danger Room also ran the Serpent Crown and Book of the Darkhold, to get Beast and Iceman to the 4m usage, as well as Gambit.

Generally, I still didn't attack the Battlesite(s), because I forgot about the new KO rules*

The teamwork follow-ups being made with the initial attack seemed like a significant change. It definitely made a difference in how they were played offensively, from both sides too. Unless I already had card advantage, I don't think I ever made 3 attacks at once. It's hard for me to tell how much of a difference it made in terms of being able to defend it differently, though, because I was never committing to 2 follow-ups. So, the idea of playing a DoubleShot to block 2 follow-ups never really came up. In general, I don't think this rule change achieves it's desired effect, or at least not how it was perhaps conceived to achieve that effect.

The combines - BIG difference in attack prowess. On more than a few occassiopns, I found myself pressuring quite a bit by combining an AE with a multi.

*more to come - gotta get back to work!

----------------------------

Okay, so the more to come is now  ;)

So, I'm going to build another two decks without homebases. I'll make one strictly max-6ers, and the other try to hit at least a few max-8ers (if not actually 4), but not with the new character valuations... Essentially, I don't necessarily think the new point system is effective - or at least as effective as some of the other elements for balancing. Given the complexity, I think it might just be better to leave the Sum Totals alone. That is to say, I don't think it's "worth" it to implement that particular change...

From there, I think I'll mess a little with the Any-Power rule about Sum Totals... maybe there could be a 4-point penalty still for using the duplicates, but take it from the normal rankings (76 to 72, 72 to 68, 67 to 63, 62 to 58, and 58 to 54).

For now, I'm also going to leave the Teamwork Follow-Ups traditional, and see how well these max-6ers can handle it. I don't know how much I'll end up using the combine strategy... but if I'm using Gambit (which seems likely  ;)), I'm sure I'll use at least one AE!

More evaluation to come, I'm sure.

I think that the multipower power card rule and the new double shots are a big help in giving spectrum strategy a boost.

I think teamworks should remain traditional, doubleshots should be made at the same time.
The anypower restriction is iffy... not to mention that, though I know alot of work went in to calculating each characters new total, the point value doesn't truly reflect the playability of each character any better than the old point system.  It limits the number of max 8'ers you can have on the team, and I know that was a big desire for Power Balance, so mission accomplished there.  But you're hard pressed to play 2 max 8 guys on your team, if you can even do that.  And without the right mix of specials, max 6'ers are still really vulnerable. 

My best team so far using all the Power Balance rules as designed is:

Grifter, Alpha Flight, Viper, and Hawkeye (r)

I don't have many teams to measure it up to, though.

is the 76/80 point rule in effect for teams of all numbers of grids (12-16)?

Can 3 grid characters use the 5 multipower? Adding 11 characters who can use them.

Does the fusion rule still apply?

When you were going your whole math formula thingy, you forgot to account for the fact that to KO something you only need to hit 3 types not 4.

Therefore, 3 grid characters are certainly just as effective as 4 grids in-game.

Since your whole formula for new points is based up on "Spectrum K.O." effectiveness (I agree it is certainly 95% of KOs that occur).

This formula also punishes the usage of certain characters by greatly increasing their cost. (Wonder Woman 20=>24, 20% increase)

I think 3 grid characters should have an added extra 25-33% to whatever cost you gave them already.

My favorite teams so far:

71.6:
Iron man3
Spider man3
Dr doom3
Venom3

~80:
Beyonder
Galactus
Beast3
S. Witch3/Mojo3

75.8:
New Warriors
Sauron
Backlash
Hydra

BasiliskFang - Good to hear from you again. I found it really difficult to make it fair to use the 3-stat and 4-stat characters together, for the reasons relating to use of the MultiPower cards. I ended up making it so that all the 3-star characters could be used together to make a team to fight 4-stat teams, but couldn't be used on the same team unfortunately. The rule for 3-stat character teams is a maximum of 60 points.

If you find a fair way to use the 3-stat and 4-star characters on the same team, then let me know! I'm open to suggestions.

With regards to the mathematics, it was more about the ability to create spectral variance, rather than how many power types to KO that was calculated. So, a character that has access to a wider range of power types to a higher level was given a bigger weighting. Otherwise a character than can play 3 power types vs a person who can play 5 power types would have the same weighting, and this wouldn't be fair!

Yes, it's true that some characters are more "expensive" than they were before, but this was carefully calculated. Unfortunately, another level of balance that hasn't been addressed, and really needs to be so is the specials available to each character. This task would be too big to take on, as it would be very difficult to calculate mathematically which specials are more effective than others. Best way would be trial and error, and this empirical approach could take ages to fine tune!

Thanks for the reply.

2 more questions:

Can 3 grid characters use the 5 multipower?

Does the fusion rule still apply?

Can 3 grid characters use the 5 multipower?

Yes, they can. But since they don't have an Intellect rating, the 5 MultiPower is considered not to have Intellect icon. (Didn't want to make a 5 MultiPower just for the 3 stat characters!)

Does the fusion rule still apply?

Yes, any other 3 icon MultiPower card fuses with the 5 MultiPower card.