Wow, it certainly has been slow around here lately. :(
I was thinking about a few games I've played over the years, where my ass was thoroughly handed to me, but yet I managed to pull a fast one and take the win.
One such case involved an extremely well timed (read: LUCKY) use of the 'cheese' rule. I had 1 completed mission and 6 defeated. Using Age of Apocalypse I got the event that moves all defeated missions to the reserve, and bet all 6. I had one injured character left (Spider woman), with two hits to the spectrum.) Danger room was the site. Using Beast I was able to create a partial block off, and wounded my opponent with a dinky level 3 power card. He came at me with a teamwork, the first attack I blocked the second was a level 1 power card for the kill. I almost blocked it then I realized, I just won! I let it hit and voila, Cheese win!
Anyone else have some story of a win you pulled out of your arse?
-BBH
i'm not so sure about that one, Harve. once Spider Woman is killed off, the game is over because you have no characters left. you never get to the venture total part of the battle. at least the way we played it...... but to each their own! (as log as you all agree!) javascript:void(0);
It's a perfectly legal move going by official rules. Completing your missions trumps Character KO. If I sacrifice my team to make venture to complete my mission, I win. It is referred to in the colloquial as the 'cheese' ruling.
The rule I DON'T agree with is that the game immediately stops when a team is destroyed. At the March Madness tournament in 2000, I had an opponent beat me via this tactic - He let his final character die from an Ally, thus immediately ending the match and giving him the win (he'd scored 5 pts on me already), even though my follow up card was Dr. Doom's Villainous Plot (Opponent is -6 to Venture) which would have given me the win. (And before you ask, YES, I used Dr. Doom in a tournament deck.)
I believe that the round should not be over until both players have passed. A player with no characters may still have a playable aspect, which is playable through the homebase not a frontline character. Likewise, a player who has wiped out an opponent's team may still have a trump card that should be playable. Obviously cards that target an opponent's team would be unplayable, but a card that adds to venture, or heals characters should still be playable. Perhaps a card that resets the missions (Shadow King's Twist Desire).
-BBH
Venture and Mission takes priority over KO.
I recall a match where my opponent was down 6 defeated missions/1 reserve mission, my missions were all over the place but down to my last character with 2 Spectrum hits. My opponent was confident in a KO victory, and took a level 6 Powercard hit on one of his character. His plan was to quickly Spectrum-KO my final character for the win. However, the cards needed for the Spectrum-KO were all low level Powercards, which I allowed to hit. Once my character was KO'd, I won the venture, my opponent moved his final mission to the defeated pile, and I won the game in the process.
BBH, I agree with you concerning the Ally card, the follow-up must be played since otherwise playing the Ally card would be an incomplete action. Your opponent was probably too hasty in his victory, and forgot to consider this point.
bamf!
Wow, I totally didn't know that Venture > KO! interesting, considering context, as I can see Heroes willing to die in order to complete a mission, wherein their death does not allow the villain to succeed, in and of itself. ...
Anyway, as for a great comback - this didn't end the game, but it certainly swung it back into my favor.
I placed up my entire hand (like 5 cards) and my opponent went 3 FTW, so I drew a card...
It was Rogue's POWER WIPE (from The Marvels)...
It was my turn first, and I obviously couldn't concede, so I take a swing at Spider-Woman with it...
And it lands! My opponent had to discard - HIS. ENTIRE. HAND!!!
I won the battle and fought my way back to a victory in the end. Great play.
I'll post some of my own when I have more time later, but here is an excerpt from Jon Land of the West Coast Empire
Quote from: Jon Land Stryfe's Stryke Fyles:
He had 5 missions completed with 2 in reserve. I had 3 missions in reserve with 4 in my loss pile. The only advantage I had was I had knocked out 2 of his guys, Iceman and Surfer. I had my team intact but with a lot of hits. Finally I got my good hand. He ventured 2 for the game so I ventured 2 as well. We played it out. He ko'd Cyke, I got his Banshee, at the end I had one card left in my hand to his Nova Burst placed on Torch. It was his turn to play and the venture was tied.
He sat there for the longest time just staring at my cards. I could tell he was hoping I'd give up some clue as to what card I had left in my hand. I knew what he was thinking. Finally he said, "I know you have Guardian." I just sat there expressionless, hoping to God above I didn't tip anything off. He began to flick the corner of his placed Nova Burst with his index finger repeatedly. At this point I realized how helpless I really was here. I was the one in the hot seat not him. I had to be the one to keep my composure and be patient. This is where Mike was a master. It could be his turn, but he would make you feel so pressured you'd often tip off what it was you were hiding.
Finally, he picked up the Nova Burst. He started to play it towards my Banshee, which would have knocked him out and won him the venture and the game. I ever so slightly shifted my hand toward him as if to play my Guardian. He immediately leaned back and exhaled a loooong breath. He grinned from ear to ear as he replaced his Nova Burst back on Torch. He confidently said, "Pass."
I beamed as I slowly played my Super Scream on Torch knocking him out and clinching the game. He turned in pain and agony, cursing my name and all my rotten luck. Man I have never felt more satisfied than out bluffing the master bluffer that game.
Now, why did he do what he did? He knew he could maybe slam me with Nova Burst, but he figured on carrying Nova Burst to the next battle where the same two would still be ventured rather than have it Guardianed this battle. I had tricked him into thinking I had the Guardian Angel and not my Super Scream.
Stuff like this makes me remember the good old days of staying up late at a friends house and just playing each other nonstop all night with some chips and cokes.
I need to find people who will stay up late with Chips & Coke and play non-stop :P
However, I do remember when Mission Control first came out and virtually everyone had access to the otherwise hard to find Anyheros that the "did you play your Guardian Angle yet" question was often asked. I also remember people getting a little hot about other people touching their dead pile... Those were the days!
Quote from: Onslaught on January 22, 2011, 01:06:07 AM
I'll post some of my own when I have more time later, but here is an excerpt from Jon Land of the West Coast Empire
Quote from: Jon Land Stryfe's Stryke Fyles:
He had 5 missions completed with 2 in reserve. I had 3 missions in reserve with 4 in my loss pile. The only advantage I had was I had knocked out 2 of his guys, Iceman and Surfer. I had my team intact but with a lot of hits. Finally I got my good hand. He ventured 2 for the game so I ventured 2 as well. We played it out. He ko'd Cyke, I got his Banshee, at the end I had one card left in my hand to his Nova Burst placed on Torch. It was his turn to play and the venture was tied.
He sat there for the longest time just staring at my cards. I could tell he was hoping I'd give up some clue as to what card I had left in my hand. I knew what he was thinking. Finally he said, "I know you have Guardian." I just sat there expressionless, hoping to God above I didn't tip anything off. He began to flick the corner of his placed Nova Burst with his index finger repeatedly. At this point I realized how helpless I really was here. I was the one in the hot seat not him. I had to be the one to keep my composure and be patient. This is where Mike was a master. It could be his turn, but he would make you feel so pressured you'd often tip off what it was you were hiding.
Finally, he picked up the Nova Burst. He started to play it towards my Banshee, which would have knocked him out and won him the venture and the game. I ever so slightly shifted my hand toward him as if to play my Guardian. He immediately leaned back and exhaled a loooong breath. He grinned from ear to ear as he replaced his Nova Burst back on Torch. He confidently said, "Pass."
I beamed as I slowly played my Super Scream on Torch knocking him out and clinching the game. He turned in pain and agony, cursing my name and all my rotten luck. Man I have never felt more satisfied than out bluffing the master bluffer that game.
Now, why did he do what he did? He knew he could maybe slam me with Nova Burst, but he figured on carrying Nova Burst to the next battle where the same two would still be ventured rather than have it Guardianed this battle. I had tricked him into thinking I had the Guardian Angel and not my Super Scream.
Stuff like this makes me remember the good old days of staying up late at a friends house and just playing each other nonstop all night with some chips and cokes.
This was without a doubt the golden age of Overpower. Before the advent of battlesites virtually all characters with a 9-11 attack were playable( Even Superman was playable!). The Guardian Angel/Web Head meta was a blast to play in, you were always on your toes waiting to see if he'd draw Web Head the turn aftrer you Guardian'd his 9-11.
Battlesites really did a number on the game, taking it from superhero-esque battles with big attacks to this never ending stream of defense.
Devourer helped a bit, but it was too little too late. Even with Devourer, Tyler Bertrand's 1-9 deck with Onslaughts Citadel was an absolute bear to play against.
I think battlesites were a pretty clever way of making people feel like their older non-intellect character cards weren't completely worthless. Within a few more sets, there probably could have been a little more tweaking done to find the proper balance between Any Heroes and Battlesites. Right now, it's probably slightly in the favor of battlesites, but arguably the best deck in the game bases half of it's strategy around using Any Heroes so it's a bit of a wash. I'm almost positive the next Any Hero (in DC3) would have been an AI, so I think that woulda balanced things out nicely.
That being said, yeah the "anything bigger than an 8 is unblockable because nobody plays negates" format was major fun. You couldn't really stop the big OPD's unless you used personal avoids (blah) or had Guardian. Also before Leech came out, you were allowed to Webhead for Guardian, so bluffing that was always fun too.
Now that I think about it, I really think all the different formats were fun, even the "broken ones." The shift era made a ton of characters unusuable, but it also made a bunch of previously useless people become quite powerful. The current metagame is also nicely balanced. For the aforementioned "level 11 OPDs are so good!" format, I kinda liked how all three icons were playable at the same time. Not only that, but each one had room for variation so even mirror matches could have some subtle nuances to them.
Strength: Hulk, Thing, some combination of Namor/Juggernaut/Morbius/Blob
Fighting: Wolverine, Sabretooth, Black Cat, then your choice of like Nightcrawer
Energy: Banshee, Ice Man, Human Torch, etc.
So you have Strength being the most consistent of the bunch (and the ability to run three 8 stat characters), Fighting which hoses strength (AoA missions, unblockable 3e, discard all strength icon OPD), and then Energy which has no 8 stat characters but can KO people in the blink of an eye. Fighting had the advantage vs. Strength, Energy had the advantage vs. Fighting (Banshee "discard all Fighting Icon" OPD), and strength was just all around solid. Even with those advantages in certain matchups, they were still all relatively balanced and fun.
Not a ton of diversity, especially when compared to the sophisticated builds of "modern" OP decks, but it was still great fun.
I also think the game would have become more balanced. The addition of the Hulk NN and the New Warriors EY in the Marvels set would have helped a ton against 1-9 decks.
I agree, the battlesites were a good idea, but they certainly changed the dynamic, that's for sure.
DoW was a great step to restoring balance between the two. I've been playing the Power Leech as written, and abolished the 'Leech Target rule' which also makes the difference. If you go that route, Any heroes and Battlesites are now on par with one another. Having played more than a few games this way, we've found that the win/loss ratio between sites and and Anyheroes tends to be about equal. The leech almost always connects now, which makes a huge difference.
Battlesites give you amazing versatility, but with DoW and a leech that can only be negated, Any heroes have a lot of power.
-BBH
LoL @ Playing Power Leech 'as written' to help balance the game.
Do you play webhead 'as written' also? that would help balance any heroes to be more playable also.
playing the BQ's across the board "as written" would go a long way in making those heroes top contenders. I agree with playing most of the cards as written, however it does make the FF-Plaza deck nigh invicable :( but hey, the team does not have a negate so you have them there ;-)
I'm not sure I agree with pre eratta leech either. I couldn't even imagine the old leech + being able to BQ any heroes. With the Fatal Attractions event set and any heroes it would become impossible to play an energy deck with a battlesite. Getting luck sacked like that reminds me too much of Yu-Gi-Oh.
Quote from: drdeath25 on January 24, 2011, 11:22:47 PM
LoL @ Playing Power Leech 'as written' to help balance the game.
Do you play webhead 'as written' also? that would help balance any heroes to be more playable also.
Actually, yes. We play all cards as written, with only a dozen or so errata. It opens up the game. New Universe/Fortress of Solitude is played without restriction - go ahead bet 7 and play the card. If I negate it, you are screwed. It's a tactic that can backfire. Web Head says ANY card, so you may choose ANY card.
The goal was to eliminate the meta rules entirely, because they are contradictory and a total pain the in ass. Do you know how many players I tried to get into the game but got fed up with all the little rules and errata that contradicted what was printed on the cards? Players should need only look up a standard instruction book, or the cards themselves to determine how something should be played, and that is all. Unfortunately, a small list of errata is necessary or the game is broken, but our list is on a single page and is easily referenced.
Incidentally - Our rule for FF Plaza is that you can only shift if you're blocking with a power card of 4 or less. That pretty much ties both of the printed inherent abilities together, it's still a strong inherent but not so overly powerful that it sets FF apart from any other Homebase.
Quote from: HotRod on January 25, 2011, 12:40:08 AM
I'm not sure I agree with pre eratta leech either. I couldn't even imagine the old leech + being able to BQ any heroes. With the Fatal Attractions event set and any heroes it would become impossible to play an energy deck with a battlesite. Getting luck sacked like that reminds me too much of Yu-Gi-Oh.
Remember, back before the Leech was changed, there were only two or three characters who actually had a negate. There were no battlesites, and no any hero negate. Now there are many ways to stop the Leech. We've been using this system for a couple of years now, and it works. I have yet to come up with a broken deck, there is always a counter.
You've read my list of core rule adjustments... if you can make a broken team, please do! I have yet to see a team that cannot be countered by one strategy or another.
BTW Hot Rod - remember we were talking about those selection cards, like Caliban, or Gift of the Gods? I liked your etiquette of showing the opponent the drawn card - as you said there's too much room for abuse - so we added another tweak to our rules - If you are allowed to select a 'specific card type' from the draw or the dead pile, then you must show your opponent the chosen card. If no specific card type is mentioned, then you needn't show the card.
-BBH
I'll see what I can build.
I'm not as worried about a "Bet 7" type of deck as I am about making a top tier deck better. This was a problem Yu-Gi-OH had: you could make a deck to counter a top tier deck, but in a tournament it wouldn't be the top tier deck that would beat you, it would be the 2nd tier deck.
I figure a top tier deck should have about a 55-60% win rate with the rest (say 5-10%) coming from the player. If a deck manages a 70% or better (7 out of 10) across the field it's absolutely broken.
And yeah, I feel every searched out card should be shown, plus I think both players should be able to search each others dead piles at will. Anything that inhibits cheating is a good thing for the most part. The cheating in Yu-Gi-Oh was brutal, I remember getting completely sacked (most likely stacked as well) by a guy at a major tournament (100 people, I was pairing #2.) going into the final round; the first game was 1 turn, the 2nd game was 2.
To combine the discussion about the strength of battlesites, the strength of Any Heroes, and playing Leech as written...
One of the cooler things about battlesites was that it let you use some of the more interesting cards that belonged to weaker characters. There's no way in hell I'm going to use Post in a deck, but using him through a battlesite keeps a unique effect like "Gather Info" from going to waste. Similarly, it lets you use more of your favorite characters at once. If you are a big Spidey fan but want to use an energy deck, you can always throw some Spider-Man activators from a battlesite.
Through this ability to use some of the more fancy effects from a battlesite, mini-combos became part of the game. Obfuscate from a battlesite with Fatal Attractions. Wisecrack with Finite Power or an effect to prevent conceding. Little synergistic interactions like this were good for the game I think, though they made Any Heroes feel "plain" in comparison.
The huge complaint about the game back in the old newsgroup days was that special cards that weren't big attacks were all useless. Most people played no more than 2 or 3 specials per character, because the majority of specials were viewed as worthless. In fact, some people ignored the fact that having something like a level 6 special and a level 6 powercard in the same hand would be valuable for pushing through damage - and would go as far as saying that if specials weren't higher than 7 that they weren't usable. There was some logic behind this (if you give a weighted value to a card that takes into account the % chance you'll be able to use it when you draw it, the average venture of an 8 strength powercard in a deck with Thing/Hulk/Namor is around 7+, while something like a level 7 special is only 3.5 or so).
So, the big raging debate was how to make more than just single stat decks viable. Naturally, dual color decks are better at spectrum KOing and will be better at winning venture due to being able to hold a higher amount of teamworks. The downside of these decks were that they would have a lot more unusable cards when a character died (and characters died fast back then!). Single stat decks were just more consistent since they only lost 2 or 3 unusable cards when somebody was KO'ed, not to mention their ability to load up on level 8 powercards. People wanted more differentiation amongst characters by having good specials that weren't just a high level attack. They also wanted grids to matter less (many people felt that the grid was the ONLY thing that mattered when selecting a character, which made things seem grim since there were only a small amount of possible combinations for 3 stats).
Well, all these wishes came true. Inherent abilities and more dual stat characters (thanks to the Intellect stat) blew things wide open. Not only did grids begin to matter less (I'd play a 1-1-1-1 character if his inherent ability gave the team +4 to venture per turn and he had a set of Marauders specials), but there were more and more "effect based" specials. This was a good thing - the game would have become very stale if it was just constantly trading high level attack cards.
So, how does all this all tie together? The fundamental change in the game from big grids/big attacks to "good effects matter the most" (with an undercurrent of "it's easier to keep characters alive longer either via shifting for an era or the modern environment of defensive nets) did only one thing negative in my opinion - it made a negate character a necessity in 90% of decks. If you have a really fast Heroes for Hire based deck that can KO mini-combo characters quickly, or a defensive deck with Invisible Woman, you can probably squeak by without a negate character. If you don't have a negate character, a battlesite also becomes mandatory.
Four Freedoms is still a powerhouse deck in certain matchups. If you are trying to win by playing lots of attacks, you are probably going to lose to FF Plaza. However, try playing FF against a deck with the Starjammers. Keeyah and Raza are going to eat you alive, not to mention any other effect based specials the team might be running. Now, whether or not it's a good or bad thing that the current environment is mostly anchored around needing a negate character is up for debate. A common complaint was that more characters should have had a negate, that way you wouldn't be restricted to choosing from three or four staple characters when making a deck. I don't even know if that would have changed things too much. Also, if too many people start having negates, then you can start making negate nets without sacrificing other things like the modern dual negate decks must do. Personally, I don't mind negates being so important right now, they are kind of like the glue to the format. Furthermore, it is cool when you are able to come up with a team that can function without a negate - it feels like a little secret that you've managed to sneak into the game.
Taking all that into account, it would be a very bad thing if you made the game even more anchored around negate characters. Making Leech play by its original text (or allowing it to be retrieved by BQ) just makes negate characters even more essential, which just leads to a more homogenized and ultimately boring format.
I agree about needing dual negates to have any chance at consistently beating a BQ-able old leech. A format requiring dual negates with only 15+1 negate characters might be the lamest format seen yet.
Hey Onslaught! Thanks for weighing in...
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 04:28:31 PM
To combine the discussion about the strength of battlesites, the strength of Any Heroes, and playing Leech as written...
One of the cooler things about battlesites was that it let you use some of the more interesting cards that belonged to weaker characters. There's no way in hell I'm going to use Post in a deck, but using him through a battlesite keeps a unique effect like "Gather Info" from going to waste. Similarly, it lets you use more of your favorite characters at once. If you are a big Spidey fan but want to use an energy deck, you can always throw some Spider-Man activators from a battlesite.
Agreed. I love battlesites for the variety they provide, as well as making use of some underused (read: NEVER) cards.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 04:28:31 PM
Well, all these wishes came true. Inherent abilities and more dual stat characters (thanks to the Intellect stat) blew things wide open. Not only did grids begin to matter less (I'd play a 1-1-1-1 character if his inherent ability gave the team +4 to venture per turn and he had a set of Marauders specials), but there were more and more "effect based" specials. This was a good thing - the game would have become very stale if it was just constantly trading high level attack cards.
So, how does all this all tie together? The fundamental change in the game from big grids/big attacks to "good effects matter the most" (with an undercurrent of "it's easier to keep characters alive longer either via shifting for an era or the modern environment of defensive nets) did only one thing negative in my opinion - it made a negate character a necessity in 90% of decks. If you have a really fast Heroes for Hire based deck that can KO mini-combo characters quickly, or a defensive deck with Invisible Woman, you can probably squeak by without a negate character. If you don't have a negate character, a battlesite also becomes mandatory.
As more sets came out, there were far more 'effect' cards coming into play, which as you say, made it more interesting. As far as I remember, factoring a negate into my deck has always been the norm for deckbuilding, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I will put a character with negates on my team. More often than not it was from a battlesite. Even so, a team with enough 'tricks' simply means you have to decide carefully what you'll negate, because something is inevitably getting through.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 04:28:31 PM
Four Freedoms is still a powerhouse deck in certain matchups. If you are trying to win by playing lots of attacks, you are probably going to lose to FF Plaza. However, try playing FF against a deck with the Starjammers. Keeyah and Raza are going to eat you alive, not to mention any other effect based specials the team might be running. Now, whether or not it's a good or bad thing that the current environment is mostly anchored around needing a negate character is up for debate. A common complaint was that more characters should have had a negate, that way you wouldn't be restricted to choosing from three or four staple characters when making a deck. I don't even know if that would have changed things too much. Also, if too many people start having negates, then you can start making negate nets without sacrificing other things like the modern dual negate decks must do. Personally, I don't mind negates being so important right now, they are kind of like the glue to the format. Furthermore, it is cool when you are able to come up with a team that can function without a negate - it feels like a little secret that you've managed to sneak into the game.
Taking all that into account, it would be a very bad thing if you made the game even more anchored around negate characters. Making Leech play by its original text (or allowing it to be retrieved by BQ) just makes negate characters even more essential, which just leads to a more homogenized and ultimately boring format.
The idea that FF plaza is a powerful, but beatable team is a good thing. That the FF will dominate against some and lose against others is a good balance. As you say, now some decks will completely trash the FF Plaza, But I remember back when all you saw was FF decks or Marauders decks at tournaments. Hell, I remember tournaments that specifically banned both! Both extremes are not ideal, obviously. You should worry about the player you are up against, not the team they are using.
As for the Leech being played as written, I can tell you with certainty that it doesn't make a difference at this point with regards to having a negate character. The need to have a negate is already present, removing the Leech target rule doesn't change that. It actually opens options because now a player is that much more likely to consider Any Heroes as a viable option. And the use of Any Heroes necessitates a different mindset when constructing a team. Certain teams built with a site just don't work as well with Any heroes, and vice-versa. That creates more variety, not less.
Also consider this - Battlesites have many cards that are on Par (if not stronger) with the Leech in terms of power. (Absorb Sound comes to mind right away, but there are other non-leech options such as draws, BQs, heavy hits etc.). All of these require a negate to stop them. There is no target rule for many of these cards that will often automatically create a game winning situation. By restoring the Leech, you grant the Any Hero something on the level with these options and restore a balance.
The result is that Anyheroes are powerful but lacking in variety, while Battlesites are versatile but can be destroyed or locked down with a little strategy. This is a decent balance.
The other motivation was simplicity. There are TOO MANY errata and adjustments to specific cards. One of my peeves right from the get-go was that so many cards didn't actually follow the printed text, and you needed some obscure meta rule to clear things up.
This isn't something I've just thought about, I've tested it out for two years with my regular playing partner, and instead of making things boring, we found it refreshed things and created new options. (Not just restoring Leech, mind you, but playing ALL cards as written with only a few standing errata). We've played hundreds of games with a lot of variety in deck construction.
Of course, the problem is we are only two points of view. I'd love to get a whole variety of players testing out our theories, which is why I bring them up. Your POV is greatly appreciated, BTW. ;)
I agree, that you want to beware of trends that limit variety. Card versatility is key to seeing some great new ideas. But at the same time strengthening an option isn't a bad thing, just so long as there are other strong options to choose from, which there are.
-BBH
I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed." ;)
Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.
-----Interesting side note: when the change that BQ's couldn't get Any Heroes back anymore came into effect, our store heard news of it only as "Webheaded Wizard can't get Any Heroes back anymore." This led to some interesting decks featuring Scarlet Spider. In a way, I wish that had actually been the ruling. It would make people like Scarlet Spider or Wonder Woman a little more attractive while still keeping Leech from being abusive.
(Of course that would be thrown out the window later down the line, thanks to the Marauders getting a BQ for some reason...)
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed." ;)
Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.
Haha, I remember "the period after Leech was released but before it was errata'd" such a happy time (not). :P
I think Leech is probably ok as printed on it's own, but being able to BQ it is too much. This would make it as strong as Absorb Sound, but not more powerful (seeing as you can't BQ battlesite specials).
Even without being able to BQ it, I think it's too degenerate. You can DOW Absorb Sound, not to mention it will whiff vs. a lot of decks. You also can place Leech....just too strong IMO. It would essentially read "unless your opponent has a negate, win 5 venture."
That's oversimplifying of course, but that's what it would come down to for any good player. So, two good players with all other things being equal...
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
I have played with Leech "as printed" before, it was called "the period after Leech was released but before it was errataed." ;)
Even as a means of bringing it up to the power level of battlesites, it's just too good as printed. It devolves the game into a coinflip situation (the majority of games with Leech before it was errataed came down to who drew Leech first). It would seem like even more of a crapshoot if you could retreive it with Webhead...just whoever gets lucky drawing one per deck cards before the other person does.
Smartass. :P
Of course, that was the time before battlesites and the options to stop the leech were few and far between, Even the Bastion was just a gleam in Developer's eyes. With the IQ set, only Beast, Morbius, Scarlet Witch and Mojo had negates, so they were the only options to stop the leech. The pendulum has swung the other way now, so it's not a coinflip scenario anymore. There are just so many options to make things interesting.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 08:36:37 PM
-----Interesting side note: when the change that BQ's couldn't get Any Heroes back anymore came into effect, our store heard news of it only as "Webheaded Wizard can't get Any Heroes back anymore." This led to some interesting decks featuring Scarlet Spider. In a way, I wish that had actually been the ruling. It would make people like Scarlet Spider or Wonder Woman a little more attractive while still keeping Leech from being abusive.
(Of course that would be thrown out the window later down the line, thanks to the Marauders getting a BQ for some reason...)
We do play it that way. Even if I were to relent on the Power Leech target rule, and the Any hero limitation effect, I would argue in favour of keeping these specific characters' BQs as printed for the very reason you outline. It makes them more appealing, and creates options.
I guess the ultimate test would be to play an anyhero deck with Scarlet Spider, Wonder Woman, Two-Face and a 17 point character in back (Hawkeye anyone?). Everyone of these characters has BQs, plus the Web Headed wizard. It works in theory, but you're still at the mercy of the luck of your draws.
As for Marauder's BQ, interestingly enough, it's nicely balanced by its own wording - 'Any
Special not playable by Marauders.' It provides many good options, as well as automatically eliminating any-heroes from the options.
Quote from: HotRod on January 25, 2011, 09:41:31 PM
I think Leech is probably ok as printed on it's own, but being able to BQ it is too much. This would make it as strong as Absorb Sound, but not more powerful (seeing as you can't BQ battlesite specials).
You know, an idea I considered adding to my house rules was the notion that Anyheroes get discarded into the Dead Characters pile after use, like Battlesite specials. That way you get one use out of them. But you can still BQ an unused Any hero that was discarded for whatever reason, but it also creates par with the Battlesites. Thoughts?
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 09:50:49 PM
Even without being able to BQ it, I think it's too degenerate. You can DOW Absorb Sound, not to mention it will whiff vs. a lot of decks. You also can place Leech....just too strong IMO. It would essentially read "unless your opponent has a negate, win 5 venture."
That's oversimplifying of course, but that's what it would come down to for any good player. So, two good players with all other things being equal...
Like I said, we've tested it out for two years, and the reality of it is that the ideal situation rarely comes up. Luck is the ultimate balancer in the end.
-BBH
QuoteYou know, an idea I considered adding to my house rules was the notion that Anyheroes get discarded into the Dead Characters pile after use, like Battlesite specials. That way you get one use out of them. But you can still BQ an unused Any hero that was discarded for whatever reason, but it also creates par with the Battlesites. Thoughts?
I actually like this idea and wish they had done it in the first place. To me, Any Heroes were just like Event cards. They represented someone not on your team swooping in for a quick assist. Events went to the dead characters pile, so Any Heroes probably should have too. It makes sense flavorwise too - you should be able to recur a technique like "Thor hits someone with Hammer" but not something like "Angel flew in and picked you up to dodge an attack and then left."
QuoteLike I said, we've tested it out for two years, and the reality of it is that the ideal situation rarely comes up. Luck is the ultimate balancer in the end.
??? The point of any competitive asymmetrical game should be to minimize luck altogether instead of relying on it to balance things out...
---------Interesting side note number two: One thing that gets lost in reminiscing about the mythology of Power Leech is the origin of its creation.
It was initially designed in order to punish single stat decks, as a means of dissuading use of the popular strength deck. I think that is really interesting. If it had only hit power cards, it might have served that purpose...but with dual stat decks running copious amounts of teamworks you would still get hit for 4 discards even if you weren't single stat.
Discarding Any Heroes to the "Dead Character" pile is an interesting idea, though it does wreck the "New Lease On Life" deck.
But really, you have 1 leech to 3+ dazzler activators, if the activator deck has a negate on the team, it should have about 7 shots at a negate ( 3 in deck + beyonder + 3 activators). It's still pretty hard to get the old leech off, with a pure avoid + personal negate, you just can't get the damn thing off in it's current state. Theres no way in hell I'd bet 5 off a hand relying on the current leech, but you can definitely bet 5 off an Absorb Sound against an energy deck.
I'm starting to think we need a chat room on this site!
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 10:10:27 PM
I actually like this idea and wish they had done it in the first place. To me, Any Heroes were just like Event cards. They represented someone not on your team swooping in for a quick assist. Events went to the dead characters pile, so Any Heroes probably should have too. It makes sense flavorwise too - you should be able to recur a technique like "Thor hits someone with Hammer" but not something like "Angel flew in and picked you up to dodge an attack and then left."
I wanted to test it out, but Lorne (my usual playing partner and rule tester) didn't like the idea. I think it works on so many levels and allows us to keep the anyheroes as written because you get them once.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 25, 2011, 10:10:27 PM
??? The point of any competitive asymmetrical game should be to minimize luck altogether instead of relying on it to balance things out...
Luck is a factor that can't entirely be eliminated in these games. No matter how well you design your team, you can't create the perfect hand every round, you can only minimize the odds of getting a truly lousy hand. Even then, you'll still get shafted once in a while. Such is the nature of the beast. No matter how well you design it, luck will always play a role.
And that's a good thing, I think. The ultimate equalizer, not by design, but simply by nature.
BTW - Where are you based out of Onslaught? I'm just curious if you're close enough to consider attending one of our Toronto meetups. We're looking to do them bi-monthly. April may even be a tournament, I acquired some Holo-heroes that I will offer as prizes if we can get enough interest.
Quote from: HotRod on January 25, 2011, 10:16:40 PM
Discarding Any Heroes to the "Dead Character" pile is an interesting idea, though it does wreck the "New Lease On Life" deck.
Not really. You still get your regular cards back, and you opponent may get screwed with unusable activators.
Quote from: HotRod on January 25, 2011, 10:16:40 PM
But really, you have 1 leech to 3+ dazzler activators, if the activator deck has a negate on the team, it should have about 7 shots at a negate ( 3 in deck + beyonder + 3 activators). It's still pretty hard to get the old leech off, with a pure avoid + personal negate, you just can't get the damn thing off in it's current state. Theres no way in hell I'd bet 5 off a hand relying on the current leech, but you can definitely bet 5 off an Absorb Sound against an energy deck.
Precisely the reasoning behind playing Leech as written.
-BBH
I dunno man, it gives even less of a reason to run anything but Fatal Attractions.
@BBH - I'm in California, so making it to Toronto probably isn't in the cards. I'd love to compete for Holo Heroes though...ahhhh
@HotRod - I'm not sure why you're so enamored with Absorb Sound from a Battlesite...it doesn't work vs. every deck like Leech does, and it is going to kill all the activators in your own hand as well. You could play it after you already used your other activators, but of course now it's going to make them discard fewer cards.
Quote from: Onslaught on January 26, 2011, 05:37:44 AM
@BBH - I'm in California, so making it to Toronto probably isn't in the cards. I'd love to compete for Holo Heroes though...ahhhh
@HotRod - I'm not sure why you're so enamored with Absorb Sound from a Battlesite...it doesn't work vs. every deck like Leech does, and it is going to kill all the activators in your own hand as well. You could play it after you already used your other activators, but of course now it's going to make them discard fewer cards.
I'm not sure which part of California you're in, but I know when I've flown out to Las Vegas and LA from Buffalo it was pretty reasonable. If you can get a flight to Buffalo I'm sure either the Buffalo guys could drive you up, or we'd just come down and pick you up at the airport.
I don't want to start an arguement with you, I'm not going to contribute to any flaming here. I'm completely happy with hitting the reset button and letting bye-gones be bye-gones. I'd rather be friends with you than enemies! ;D
This used to be a good thread i was interesting in seeing alot of responses to the original post.
But anyway, while we are off-topic i might as well just ask. How do you play Beyonder 'as written'? Im just curious, not trying to be an asshole.
Quote from: drdeath25 on January 26, 2011, 07:03:03 PM
This used to be a good thread i was interesting in seeing alot of responses to the original post.
But anyway, while we are off-topic i might as well just ask. How do you play Beyonder 'as written'? Im just curious, not trying to be an asshole.
I guess getting back on topic could be considered a great comeback! :P
Beyonder's inherent remains one of the errata that is kept. So he's played as intended. We play all cards as written with a standing list of errata to keep balance. But it's a significantly smaller list of errata, and much more manageable.
-BBH
PS: Never thought you were being an asshole, it's a fair question. ;)
out of curiosity, what is the new universe/fortress of solitude errata?
must have missed this one...
The only thing I remember is that you cannot Venture more than 2, and use that card (to effectively burn extra cards from your Opponent's deck).
Quote from: breadmaster on January 28, 2011, 02:48:48 AM
out of curiosity, what is the new universe/fortress of solitude errata?
must have missed this one...
Quote from: ncannelora on January 28, 2011, 03:07:22 PM
The only thing I remember is that you cannot Venture more than 2, and use that card (to effectively burn extra cards from your Opponent's deck).
Yes, that's it exactly. Fortress of Solitude/New Universe may only be played if you've ventured no more than 2 cards. Your opponent's venture doesn't affect your ability to play it, though.
-BBH
interesting
another q. it was mentioned this card could be negated...does this mean a negate can be played after any special played on the offensive turn, regardless of whether the effect of the card is considered an attack?
Yes, you can defensively negate fortress if your opponent plays it offensively.
Well... the only way to play fortress is offensively. So once your opponent tries to play it, you negate it. and the battle continues...
And if your question was for any special card that is played offensively, regardless of it is an attack. Yes, you can defensively negate any offensively played special, even if the special isnt an attack.
IE. Opponent plays "Draw 3 Cards" Special. You play your negate in defense. He cant draw his cards. And now it is your turn.
Quote from: drdeath25 on January 28, 2011, 11:29:59 PM
Yes, you can defensively negate fortress if your opponent plays it offensively.
Well... the only way to play fortress is offensively. So once your opponent tries to play it, you negate it. and the battle continues...
And if your question was for any special card that is played offensively, regardless of it is an attack. Yes, you can defensively negate any offensively played special, even if the special isnt an attack.
IE. Opponent plays "Draw 3 Cards" Special. You play your negate in defense. He cant draw his cards. And now it is your turn.
I think it's worth mentioning, however, that you can't 'negate' a negate that was played defensively. So, if you play New Universe to concede, and I play a negate to stop you. You cannot negate my negate to get your New Universe into play.
You CAN negate a negate that was played offensively, though. IE: You have Gambit's Charm in play, and I decide on my turn to negate it, you can play a negate to stop me from getting rid of your special with my own negate.
Clear as mud? :P
-BBH
This is far more clear than Yu-Gi-Oh. 1, 2 and 3 speed cards + chains = pita. But even with that, once you've go it down, you're solid.
about negates again:
y'all said you can negate new universe or draw 3 cards. was this a rule change or an errata. it seems to contradict what the rulebook says
monumental pg31
'Some special cards do not act as attacks, and are not used as defensive actions. These include, but are not limited to, cards that affect the venture, cards that affect a character's own power grid, and cards that affect the battle. Specials of this type are played on your turn just as if you were making an attack, but since you are not affecting your opponent's characters, your opponent does not get to respond with a defensive action.'
also regarding negates.
suppose i play a +3 to venture card. does this card hang around until the end of the battle able to be negated?
Quote from: breadmaster on February 26, 2011, 03:12:00 AM
about negates again:
y'all said you can negate new universe or draw 3 cards. was this a rule change or an errata. it seems to contradict what the rulebook says
monumental pg31
'Some special cards do not act as attacks, and are not used as defensive actions. These include, but are not limited to, cards that affect the venture, cards that affect a character's own power grid, and cards that affect the battle. Specials of this type are played on your turn just as if you were making an attack, but since you are not affecting your opponent's characters, your opponent does not get to respond with a defensive action.'
also regarding negates.
suppose i play a +3 to venture card. does this card hang around until the end of the battle able to be negated?
No, that's not an errata, that's the way it was from day one with negates. I can see where it would seem contradictory... stupid wording. When it says 'defensive action' they are referring to things like blocks and avoids against specific attacks, as opposed to a negate which CAN be used as a defensive action (IE: To negate an attack thus avoiding it) as well as stop the effect set in motion by an opponent which is not necessarily an attack.
And yes, if you play +3 to venture, it stays 'on the table' until the end of the round at which time you count it to your total. Because of this your opponent can negate it.
Cheers!
-BBH
Quote from: ncannelora on January 21, 2011, 03:56:54 PM
Wow, I totally didn't know that Venture > KO! interesting, considering context, as I can see Heroes willing to die in order to complete a mission, wherein their death does not allow the villain to succeed, in and of itself. ...
Anyway, as for a great comback - this didn't end the game, but it certainly swung it back into my favor.
I placed up my entire hand (like 5 cards) and my opponent went 3 FTW, so I drew a card...
It was Rogue's POWER WIPE (from The Marvels)...
It was my turn first, and I obviously couldn't concede, so I take a swing at Spider-Woman with it...
And it lands! My opponent had to discard - HIS. ENTIRE. HAND!!!
I won the battle and fought my way back to a victory in the end. Great play.
I hate you.