one of the evils discussions got me thinking about the elusive double 8-stat character (excluding galactus). I only looked at marvel/dc
I went through the characters and came up with quite a few I thought warranted it. I won't list them, so other people can post their ideas first. here were the 'tiers'
tier A: these characters were shoe-ins (to me). I came up with 5
tier B: most of these have an 8 that is obvious. a second 8 is a stretch. I came up with 7
tier C: these guys have sliding power levels. one 8 is pushing it, 2 is nuts! I came up with 5
are you looking for people who already exist in OP? or comic characters in general?
I honestly can't really think of any in OP that warrant it... I've heard a lot of people throw out some names (mostly in DC, as it were), but I'm never really convinced...
existing characters
none that warrant it? what about thor? martian manhunter?
Batman! 2-8-4-8
Quote from: breadmaster on June 06, 2013, 08:34:28 PM
existing characters
none that warrant it? what about thor? martian manhunter?
I don't think Thor's E warrants an 8 (unless a slew of other 7E characters got bumped).
I don't know enough about Martian Manhunter to say he should have dual 8s. I think he and Superman should both have 8S, but i'm not sold on the 8E...
Quote from: Palatinus on June 07, 2013, 12:25:25 AM
Batman! 2-8-4-8
This is another that I see suggested a lot, but again, I'm skeptical. Maybe I just haven't read enough Batman, but I don't see him with an 8I... not while Beast, Professor, and many others have 7s.
Again, maybe I just don't know DC enough :-\
I've just about completed my re-ratings of all the OP characters. I printed out all of the character cards Bios created, with numerous grid revisions of my own, along with a couple dozen custom characters I created (with Jack's assistance) leaving me with a total of over 300 unique characters (this number doesn't include team cards, which I do not use in my game).
What I've found while creating grids is a lot of characters could easily qualify for ratings of 8 in one or more categories. After all, these are 'super' heroes and villains; characters with a wide range of powers and abilities, with dozens upon dozens of them having the ability to qualify for an 8 rating. The key is balance; too many 8 rated characters, let along multi-8 and you'll find the character pool will shrink when it comes time to compete on a tournament level (or even a 'friendly' game that isn't theme related).
I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have my spreadsheets and data on hand, but in my revision, I have about 60 characters that have an 8 in their grid, ranging from one character in each skill having a single 8, 17 point character (Energy: X-Man, Fighting: Elektra, Strength: Abomination, Intellect: Oracle) to higher cost characters (23-25 point totals). I always felt that Energy had an unfair advantage in Overpower, at least from a grid standpoint, so I made sure to offer alternatives to the 17 point X-Man so each skill set could have a 17 point 8 skill to choose from.
Having gone through all the characters I came across maybe a dozen that I could truly see having multi-8 grids, and from there I whittled the list down. Galactus and Anti-Monitor are my two all 8 characters, and I had Thanos and Darkseid at multi-8, but I changed Darkseid to 7-3-8-7 and Thanos to a 7-5-8-6. From there it was easier, as Darkseid and Thanos are two of the strongest characters in all of comic books. In the end, I settled on only two characters possessing multi-8 grids; Superman and Batman.
I always envisioned Superman as a dual 8 character. In fact, when I played with a group all those years ago when OverPower was alive and pumping out new sets, we had Superman modified to have an 8 in Energy and Strength. He's Superman for goodness sake, if any character merits dual 8's, it's him. I have Superman's grid at 8-4-8-5, basically a hybrid Superman that takes into consideration all of his eras, which is how I determined the 5 Intellect. Pre-Crisis Superman was basically a genius and was written as a near unstoppable force that could do anything and everything. Various versions of post-Crisis Superman varied slightly in terms of intellect; in more modern continuity, Superman has never been written as a buffoon, and while he's not a genius, he is intelligent and leads a team that also has Batman as a vital member, so a 5 is more than fair without pushing Superman beyond a 25 point cost.
As for Batman, I went back and forth on this one. My original group had Batman re-rated to 2-8-4-7, a very strong grid at a more than fair cost. Bios had Batman rated 4-8-4-7, and while I'm not sold on Batman having a 4 Energy rating, I could make sense of it to increase his cost as one of the premier superheroes; at least in terms of comics, certainly not in terms of original OverPower, where Batman got the shaft in regards to special cards for the most part. I decided to retain the 4 Energy for my Batman grid and increased the Intellect to 8 based on the amazing seven year run of Batman comics that Grant Morrison is concluding this summer, where Batman basically had an 'answer' or a 'counter' to just about everything placed in his path. I also wanted Batman to be one point less in terms of grid cost compared to Superman, based on the fact that Batman is a regular (albeit highly trained and skilled) human and Superman is a powerful alien. Bios originally had both characters at 23 points, and my revisions have Batman at 24 points and Superman at 25 points.
I'm satisfied with my revisions; they work for me and what I'm setting out to accomplish with my revision of OverPower. I think multi-8 skill characters should be very rare, the absolute best of the best.
For reference, the final list of characters I considered for the dual 8 rating are listed below. This list excludes the all-8 Galactus and Anti-Monitor:
Superman: explained above, gave an 8 in Energy and Strength.
Batman: explained above, gave an 8 in Fighting and Intellect.
Darkseid: explained above, gave an 8 in Strength and two 7's (Energy and Intellect).
Thanos: explained above, gave an 8 in Strength and one 7 (Energy).
Malebolgia: I could see Malebolgia with an 8 in Energy and Intellect, but from my research, I'm not sure he's supposed to be Satan in the Image comic books. It appears he may not be the complete 'master' of the underworld but a character that is only below the Devil himself in regards to authority and power.
Mephisto: See Malebolgia. I kept the PowerBalance grid of 7-2-7-7, making Mephisto one of three or four characters with Triple-7 grids (Iron Man and Master Mold are two others).
Thor: One of the closer calls, but I ultimately rated Thor, 7-5-8-3. I considered Thor's energy rating to be equal to Darkseid and Thanos.
Spectre: I considered giving an 8 for Intellect but decided to rate Spectre, 8-4-6-6. This was one of the characters where the intellect rating might be more accurately represented as a 7, but for the sake of variety I wanted to make Spectre a higher cost character with some great specials but only a single 8 and no 7's in his grid.
Silver Surfer: A herald of Galactus, he's probably on par with Superman in regards to Energy and Strength but I ultimately went with a grid of 8-4-7-4, which I think is the same grid Bios had for the Surfer.
Care to delve into a little more detail regarding your tiers and characters, breadmaster? I'd be interested to see your tiers and how you determined them.
absolutely i'll elaborate, TGW. just wanted to get some other thoughts out there before mine
my 5 shoe-ins are more or less jla + thor
batman
wonder woman
superman
martian manhunter
thor
batman is always around top 3 intellect in dc (luthor/wayne/mr terrific).
wonder woman is easily an 8 strength. her fighting fluctuates between top 5 and 'just really good'
superman 8s is a lock. 8e seems to be more debated, but it's a no-doubter in my mind. having him in a tier with iceman/Cyclops/storm etc isn't right. either they have to be dropped to 6, or he has to go to 8.
j'onn's strength is often overlooked. he's right there with superman/wonder woman etc. his telepathy/martian vision puts him equal with prof x
thor's 8s is obvious. again, no way his energy should be on a tier with storm. he outclasses her in every way, and then has way more energy powers on top (teleportation/speed) not to mention the godblast
the next tier are characters that have an 8 (or should) and could possibly get a 2nd
brainiac
darkseid
neron
captain atom
orion
cyborg
mr fantastic...what!?!
brainiac: should have been given an 8i. 8e? he has lots of powers...maybe?
darkseid: 8s is easy. his intellect is high, but doesn't seem 8 worthy. his energy feats however, but him in the conversation
neron: the mephisto conundrum. could be given 8e/I, and possibly strength too
captain atom: his strength has often been shown superman-tier. his energy powers have been shown off the chart. he suffers from lots of interpretations (btw, this is a good time to mention that for dc characters, I use the post-crisis to new 52 era. these are the versions i'm most familiar with, as well as the era overpower was kicking)
orion: 8s is a given. his fighting is sometimes portrayed to be second to none, and other times he's a mindless brawler (same as thor)
cyborg: weird one. tech abilities could make him 8e (it might be high), and his strength fluctuates as well
mr fantastic: this one's purely me. no one would argue with 8i, but he always gets shortchanged on fighting. there's few 8f characters he can't hold his own with (or outright beat)
the last tier would be characters like TGW had. possibles, but not really.
apocalypse-possibly 8s and 8e. (high intellect and fighting too) most appearances are lower
beta ray bill-same as thor. great fighting/strength/energy stats
captain marvel-8s easily. energy doesn't seem to get him quite there. he probably could earn a 7 for speed and lightning, but they shouldn't stack
eradicator-high energy and strength. probably safest at the dual 7
silver surfer-8e easy. can pump his strength to 8, but it's not really 'natural'
thanos is a tough one. he has the feats to get the 8 in int/en/str. oh, and he's also described as an outstanding hand-to-hand fighter...geez
The biggest problem with these types of ratings versus the kind you might find in comics or on trading cards is the idea of balance. It's one thing to rate a god and a human on the same scale when you're not worried about them coming into direct combat in a theoretically balanced game. You have characters in OverPower who are simply exceptional humans with no special powers along with exceptional humans who also have special powers up to gods who are exceptional for gods.
So, to the point, characters with multiple 8 ratings in their stats aren't a big deal in universe. They are, however, very problematic in an actual game. This may be because of the second major problem with the system which is fitting all the above mentioned into a scale of 1-8. This is problematic because even if you just judge the top tier of any given stat, you're looking at people who can blow up buildings with a energy blast up to people who can blow up a star. You do that not within a 1-8 scale but really now you're just looking at the 6-8 scale. So, Jubilee is relative to Silver Surfer on a 6 versus 8 ratio. On top of that you're looking at characters that can not just blow things up with energy blast, but people who can smash entire planets with their fists. And then you have ones that can do both. So, lets say you've got Iron Man with 7S and 7E. Now you've go Superman. How much more powerful is Superman than Iron Man? 1 point. That's the most it could be. That is a huge shift over the course of 1 point. So, the temptation becomes to give a bunch of characters an 8 for every powerful stat and just make the 8 be a huge range from blowing up a city block to blowing up a planet. The problem is that you've now got a bottom weak and top heavy scale.
The third major problem I see is the idea of capturing everyone's abilities into four stats of Energy, Fighting, Strength, and Intellect. These groups overlap and also don't fully cover certain abilities. Does a fighting genius get high fighting, high intellect, or both? Then speed. What is speed? Is it energy because that's the only really metaphysical stat, or is it strength because it lets you hit hard and really don't you have to be strong to be fast? Or is it both because it has aspects of both? On top of that, wouldn't the fastest fighter be the best fighter? And really, if you are doing everything at super-speed, doesn't your mind have to keep up with all the data and muscular control?
In the end, the reality of it all is that if you want a balanced game that makes sense within the mechanics of the game you are going to wind up with a lot of under-power and over-powered characters as well as a lot of arbitrary grids. The way OverPower should and sometimes does compensate for this is with specials. Really, too, because stats are only used to play cards and aren't used directly against each other, e.g. Superman doesn't avoid a strength attack form Prof. X just because there's no way the Prof could hit Supes in a way that would hurt with just strength alone, stats become less important in game than they do in universe. If you want a game where the stats accurately match the comic characters to a T, you need a game where those characters can all co-exist and compete. In OverPower you have four characters versus four characters. You could easily make a team of four normal humans that competes against four gods and still have a balanced game.
It seems to me that you would have to change too many fundamental things to really fix the stats the way that is being discussed because 1. The range of powers and abilities is too great given the limited fighting conditions, 2. The scale simply isn't big enough to accurately cover all the ranges of power, and 3. The given stats don't allow for a perfect translation of powers and abilities into numbers.
I agree with a lot of what Palatinus posted above. For me, I've reassessed just about every character as well as several dozen created characters for my variation of OverPower. It would be fair to say that over the last ten months of brainstorming and idea development, I've moved away from a lot of what makes OverPower the great (but sometimes flawed) game that it is. This was somewhat intentional on a variety of levels; what started off as a way to incorporate a different spin on OP that allowed for challenging solo play ended up morphing into a different game altogether; a game that only features three characters as a default game option, modifies venture and radically restructures special cards for each character. In time, I plan on posting my alternate game option on the forum for feedback, but for now I'm still working and testing some new ideas.
One thing I can say is the grid changes were essential for me, but even with my modifying of the character grids I still took a lot of what Palatinus ended up posting into consideration. Even with my revision and development of a different game that incorporates certain OP game techniques, I still needed to maintain a balance, which can be difficult when you involve 'super' powered characters of different origin; mortal man, powerful alien, omnipotent god, etc. all had to be balanced within an eight point grid. Originally I only wanted four characters to have dual 8 grids, but ultimately I settled on two dual 8's and two all 8's. It's been working for me, but I can easily see how and why the grids are how they are in the actual game of OverPower, and modifying them too much can shrink the pool of viable characters and cause significant balance issues.
Having said all that; Superman deserved at least one 8 in his original grid if not dual 8's, while Batman deserved an 8 in fighting. Those two characters are way too iconic to get shafted with 7's, even if they get two of them in each of their grids. Superman not receiving an 8 is the biggest goof of any official grid, I'm curious too see if anyone else agrees with me on that or if the biggest goof belongs to a different character. Perhaps that's worth staring a new thread...maybe tomorrow as I gotta get some sleep.
a few things to point out:
all stats are relative to the writer of a given book. after Dark Phoenix Saga, there was concern that Storm might follow the same path. i.e., she actually had more potential in her than anyone knew, by she was able to reign herself in better than Jean (this was pre-retcon).
also, I did think of a character who might warrant dual-8s, depending on when you capture his powers: Cable. like Batman, I always thought his Fighting was CLEARLY an 8, but also his energy has easily been an 8 before
are we counting mjolnir in thor's 8e?
i agree on cable having 8e considering x-man does
http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616) (http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616))
http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616)#Powers_and_AbilitiesEdit (http://marvel.wikia.com/Nathan_Summers_(Earth-616)#Powers_and_AbilitiesEdit)
To clarify the context of what I was saying in my previous post, I think that there is certainly room for characters to have new stats. Lots of grids are really bad. I was speaking specifically to the idea of handing out too many 8's and why that is problematic. I also definitely agree that the flagship characters of DC and to some extent Marvel were not handled very well stat or special-wise. There is a lot I would do differently with Superman and Batman as far as stats and specials. This also holds true for Spider-Man and a few other major Marvel characters. I think all around the B/S set was bad with just a few characters who did alright. In that same regard the stats of the initial three Marvel sets are odd-balls now due to the changing of the grid.
One other thing TGW mentioned was that he doesn't use team cards. I can see good and bad about teams as far as stats and specials. Largely I think that OverPower fit the teams into the game fairly well given the fact that you now had entire groups fighting along-side individual people. Looking at the team grids one could easily find teams that would have multiple 8's in theory. Let's say you take a team that has individuals that warrant various 8's. Now you add them all together and you wind up with a team with two or three 8's. In actual fact, though, just throwing all those people on a team doesn't mean the team fights utilizing all of the individuals' abilities to their maximum. Team members work together by making allowances for each other and compensating for weaknesses. So, when Wolverine goes into a fight alone he might fight completely differently than when he is fighting along side the X-Men. But even if he didn't, you might have a team with some pretty strong personalities and each individual does their own thing. So now you might have some pretty powerful specials for each character, but your grid will suffer because as a team you are functioning to the highest possible potential. So, I think teams are still a viable option in Overpower and you don't have to overpower their grids at the same time. I think, though, that you have to be careful about which teams you would make. For instance, despite what I said above, I don't think that "The X-Men" makes sense as a team. For one thing, any grid is going to look silly on such a group and secondly, you wind up with way too many rosters to choose from. In that way, I think the idea of having a card for each X-Man and then building a team of four makes so much sense.
i'm not actually suggesting someone prints up new character cards. I was just trying to start a discussion on some goofed stats.
I agree, superman is THE biggest goof in the game (though it is 'only' 1 point). there are some other really bad one's like steel's intellect or flash's energy. there's also a few that are way higher than should be (morlocks 8s!?!)
I do not agree that this would fundamentally change the game. if all 17 characters I suggested WERE in fact chaged to dual 8s without changing specials, the only character that would benefit would be mr fantastic (and I doubt many would agree with me that he deserves an 8 in fighting regardless)
the majority are unused dc characters. surfer/thor/wonder woman would probably see more play, but keep in mind, their sum-deck also goes up, compromising the team
So on the money with Steel's intellect being a joke. I changed Steel to a 6 intellect to keep him at a max-6, but his standard 4 is ridiculously low. Bios has a great Flash character card; everything from the grid to the artwork is perfect, so that one I use. Quicksilver should be a max-6 character, staying on the topic of speedsters.
I'd have Mr.Fantastic at a 6 fighting at most...in fact I think I might have Fantastic at a 1-6-3-8, but I'd have to check to be sure.
also, breadmaster, you mentioned two things that caught my eye...
Martian Manhunter's telepathy is on par with Prof's? because he's the strongest telepath in the Marvel U... is that how MM is in dc?
also, I do not think you realize how powerful Storm really is... she pretty easily could have been an 8... at least according to this Claremont I'm reading right now...
Quote from: ncannelora on June 08, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
also, breadmaster, you mentioned two things that caught my eye...
Martian Manhunter's telepathy is on par with Prof's? because he's the strongest telepath in the Marvel U... is that how MM is in dc?
also, I do not think you realize how powerful Storm really is... she pretty easily could have been an 8... at least according to this Claremont I'm reading right now...
Martian Manhunter is a very powerful telepath. Realistically Martian Manhunter outclasses most other heroes in terms of ability and strength. It's really his peace-loving temperament that restricts his abilities. He can shape-shift, fly, is super-strong, can fire lasers, has telepathy, is very intelligent to the point of being able to coordinate dozens or more individuals telepathically fielding disparate missions all over the world.
Storm is super-powerful to be sure. But you can make a direct comparison to Thor because during the Marvel vs. DC comics Storm actually wound up with Thor's hammer at one point and was granted its power. She immediately gained far more power than she already had at that point. One can surmise that Thor is definitely stronger than her. At what level that leaves her I still don't know though. That could still mean she is an 8 but with Thor being a stronger 8.
Quote from: Palatinus on June 08, 2013, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: ncannelora on June 08, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
also, breadmaster, you mentioned two things that caught my eye...
Martian Manhunter's telepathy is on par with Prof's? because he's the strongest telepath in the Marvel U... is that how MM is in dc?
also, I do not think you realize how powerful Storm really is... she pretty easily could have been an 8... at least according to this Claremont I'm reading right now...
Storm is super-powerful to be sure. But you can make a direct comparison to Thor because during the Marvel vs. DC comics Storm actually wound up with Thor's hammer at one point and was granted its power. She immediately gained far more power than she already had at that point. One can surmise that Thor is definitely stronger than her. At what level that leaves her I still don't know though. That could still mean she is an 8 but with Thor being a stronger 8.
well first, that could just be a discrepancy in writing. Second, couldn't we also just figure that wielding mjolnir would amplify her powers regardless of the base-level? like the hammer is multiplying the floor, rather than pulling someone up to a ceiling. So, rather than pulling Storm up to where Thor was, it's simply multiplying her previous levels (and possibly, certainly, beyond Thor...).
IDK, I thought I had a pretty good handle on Thor - maybe not tho. I do know that reading through this current story arc (especially since this current TPB, Uncanny Essentials #4) has given me a much different idea of Storm's potential. Like you described Martian Manhunter - she clearly holds back because of her fear of hurting people.
-
Oh! I forgot to mention what happened earlier today! I'm just a nick off of playing a completely full game today with my 8yo daughter. We played with everything but Event cards today! - anyway, I was explaining how there were old grids (3-stat)... when she saw Thor's 3-stat grid!
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc422/ncannelora/BWAH-HA-HA-HA_zpsa5f32d5b.png)
OH! how I wish I could've captured that face! :o seriously, she couldn't believe it! she was like, "That just doesn't make ANY sense!"
#prouddad #raisethemright ;D
I think the cap of 8 for any given stat is what makes the grids seem unbalanced. 6-8 isn't enough room to work with for accuracy. 6-9 or 6-10 would allow for more accuracy in stats... but then you wouldn't have characters like Jubilee in the game. Some guys just couldn't hang.
Here's what I think is most important to remember... the goal of OverPower was to make a game where you could be creative and make your dream team and have a blowout! Marvel vs. Capcom features characters that couldn't possibly stand up to other characters in the game... but you don't worry about that. Felicia from Darkstalkers or Arthur from Ghost n' Goblins couldn't stand up to the Hulk or Thor. EVER. Chris Redfield can't take Dormammu. But you don't care about all that. The game isn't about showcasing powers accurately, but it is about cool superhero slugfests. OverPower is quite the same, I believe. You couldn't have Superman in the game if you wanted to accurately display his ablities unless you limited the game to only characters on his level. Even Xbabies with their inherent ability and carrying a pocket full of kryptonie doesn't put them on par with Superman, and realistically they shouldn't be in the same game if you're wanting TRUE accuracy.
I see it like this: When designing characters, 8 is the highest you can go, so it should be considered that one character with a 6 won't be as good as another character featuring a 6, but both won't be good enough to go to a 7. To what extent the power is used also should play a role. So you take a character like Superman (who I agree is the biggest 4-stat goof in OverPower) and you immediately identify what stats he primarily would use: Strength and Energy. Then you identify what tier he is in those stats. He's top tier in both, so he could have an 8 in both. Then you make adjustments for balance sake, and you roundabout assign the other stats that aren't primarily used, going on their general use... most characters fall probably in the 2-4 intellect range unless they've exhibited exceptional long-term leadership/tactical skills, engineering or scientific proficiency to a further extent. For energy, if they use a weapon of some kind that fires a projectile, a 3-4 is a good place to start. You can even give inherent abilities to restrict how they use their powers. Storm might be an 8 in actual power, but she doesn't want to hurt anyone so she pulls it back. You can give her a base 7 energy and the inherent ability that her "Energy rating is 8 for defense." They might have done more things like this had OverPower continued in production.
Back to Superman, having 2 eights only does 2 things. It offers him flexibility in different decks and allows him to play more teamworks/tactics. That's really it. Power wise, he's no stronger by his grid than any other character with an 8, though in comics he could probably demolish most 8 stat characters. I think we all realize things like this. We want justice for the heroes we love. When we look at Batman and see a 7 Fighting, we're thinking, "man we've debated all our lives whether Batman could take Wolvie or not," knowing we never would've conjured up that dream fight unless we thought Batman could take Wolverine, the premier fighter of Marvel. Only Cap could arguably outfight Wolverine in Marvel. He's the best there is at what he does. But so is Batman, just without the one-liner. Wolvie, Batsy and Cap are all top tier fighters. A list. 8's all around. I'd like to add that Marrow can hang in a fight with The Wolverine. She could probably outfight many 7's in OverPower and she only has a 6. Her primary stat is fighting, but she's not a top tier fighter... not until they write her that way (Nic has a valid point here). If Marrow become popular again and has some shining moments in Xmen and becomes a solid character for many story arcs to come, her fighting ability can go up a point to 7. If I were going to make Zangief into an OverPower card, he's going to have an 8 strength, not because he can take Superman, that's absurd... but because Strength is his proficiency and he's top tier for strength in Street Fighter.
Characters that deserve 2 8's...
1. I'll go with Superman. 7 energy suits me fine, but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to have an 8. Strength is for sure a no brainer.
2. Surfer - Power Cosmic (E), Cosmic Awareness (I), travels at superspeeds in space... an 8 energy for sure, but he might deserve a much higher intellect than he has, perhaps even an 8. He's empowered by Galactus... that 8 strength might be fair. I dunno...
3. Cable - Cable's bad. Though 26 points will keep him as far from decks as possible (inherent ability his total to 23), 8855 is probably justified, except for the techno virus taking up his telekinetic ability (they may have fixed that... I'm not sure). Anyway, minus that, add those high energy weapons, multiply the opposition and divide up the beatings.
4. Apocalypse - Like breadmaster with Mr. Fantastic, I realize most will disagree, but I've reconsidered a previous discussion we had about big A and I have a new stance. He's a premier Xmen villain. Apocalypse is over 2000 years old. He can change not only his size but also his form, he a genius in a laboratory, he can enslave people and enhance their abilities for doing his will, he never dies, he created the techno virus (I think)... he can do pretty much whatever he wants. Same as Thor, forget special cards that raise his strength to 8 for the battle, I'm pretty sure he'll come prepared. Yeah the Xmen always beat him, but that's because the good guys win. Potentially he could destroy them all, he's just a victim of bad writing. And we can't forget that he had his own Age of Apocalypse! 3488. Let the hate begin.
5. Thor could have 2 8's.
I never thought about Mr. Fantastic being an 8 Fighter... Palatinus questioned whether fighting knowledge should play a role in fighting rating or not... I'm inclined to think that his power isn't in fighting... I'm not really even sure what stat his power would fall under, but he isn't a trained martial artist, and I think that counts. I'm sure he's a knowledgeable fighter, but not a trained fighter such as Wolvie or Cap. But he's certainly better than a 5 in fighting. So is Sinister. Love that bad guy.
I've gotta rest... but I really like this discussion. I think there are quite a few characters that could be considered for two 8's, and many 7's that are probably worthy to get that extra point for an 8, but I do agree that it could get out of hand. Only a few select should be considered, and most of the ones I mentioned were just for the sake of consideration or argument... except Apocalypse. He's worth two 8's. zzz...zzz...zzz...
id put cabe at 8845
and because troop likes him
http://marvel.wikia.com/En_Sabah_Nur_(Earth-616) (http://marvel.wikia.com/En_Sabah_Nur_(Earth-616))
and marrow can 1 duplicate at atime
so thor 8684? http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1396.png indeed
so superman 8484?
nic, martian manhunter's psi powers are indeed on Xavier's level. you can google XvsMM and look at various topics where it's debated. regardless of who comes out on top (there seems to be a slight lean towards prof), they are certainly close enough power-wise to have the same grid. now, whether prof should even BE an 8 energy is another discussion
not sure why you'd assume I don't realize how powerful storm really is. I think I own every appearance of hers up to 1997, so unless she's had a phoenix-level upgrade since then, i'd say you're REALLY underestimating thor. he's used his energy powers to drive off galactus...GALACTUS! he's not just a dude throwing lightning bolts
speaking of big G. I wonder why he's always given an 8 in fighting...does galactus have a black belt in space-karate? ;)
the reason I think fantastic should have an 8 fighting, is because there's no other way to classify his 'stretchiness'. take plastic man. one of the most powerful characters, yet you can't give him high energy/strength/intellect ratings. that leaves stretching for fighting (where I also think speed should be factored, but that's another topic). if captain America were to fight reed, what could he possibly do to hurt/subdue him? also why I've argued before that spidey should get an 8f.
bread- I didn't mean to insult your knowledge of Storm. chalk that up to me being VERY impressed with Storm lately, and (wrongly?) supposing others might not know, like me.
as for MM, I did exactly that, actually. consider me educated!
lol@ Space-Karate, btw
thetrooper27- I think you make a great point with MvC. in that perspective, and in terms of what it would do for gameplay and balance, I certainly wouldn't be upset by dual-8 for Batman or Superman (or Thor or Apocalypse, etc etc).
lastly, the stickiness of stretchiness- some talents, as inherent as they may be, simply cannot be classified by the 4-stat. Mr.F's abilities certainly fall there. the solution is in the Special cards. Gambit's Charm is a GREAT example of a Special representing an otherwise difficult to quantify, but ultimately signature ability of a character. Spider Sense is a good example of a near-miss that follows along the same lines. Spider-man is not a trained fighter, but his Spider Sense gives him an INCREDIBLE edge in a fight. likewise, Mr.F's Object Bounce was a good idea, even if it was short-sighted. fortunately, The Marvels card he got (Elasticity) was much better.
Speed sees a similar representation. people have mentioned how speed can enhance the physical strength of a punch, and that is perfectly represented (IMO) by Quicksilver's High Speed Impact (11S AS). obviously, Flash should have had something similar, if not altogether better. fortunately, Flash's AI is a MUCH better card than Quicksilver's AU, which both represent a similar "effect" of their apeeds. along the same lines, I feel like Nightcrawler's "speed" was actually VERY well rep'd by his Specials and I had no problem whatsoever with his original 5E. was I happy to see him get a little bump? of course! but did he (or his abilities) need it? not really. Half of his Specials pretty directly relate to his amazing ability to teleport. one of them is called BAMF! for crying out loud! (btw, this whole portion relates VERY well to the Shatterstar discussion (http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/custom-cards/so-i-was-thinking-about-ultimate-evil/465/)). IMO, it's actually quite a shame that he lost the exclusivity of his version of that AD... seriously, he got robbed with that short-sighted botch.
anyway, glad to offer my 2 cents. now I'm WAAAY past my bedtime, so I'll pick this up tomorrow too. 'night all!
I think it was someone who made their own cards, they made galactus 9199, by creating 9e9s9i opds.
Perhaps there could be variants that make these heroes stronger.
Red son superman? 2x8
Storm 8 can be debated.
Kinda off topic, but why didn't any of the supermen get a special to play superman specials?
I've been really digging about the Mr. Fantastic with an 8F, and it's logical. But I think it would've been better represented in a good AR Fighting special, or a big AS Fighting special. Fantastic Mind should've been a big fighting attack. I think his Fighting is WAAAAY underestimated though. He's pretty awesome.
Lately, Iceman has been doing some big things... making ice bodies that he can control to fight and such. Not to mention his energy capability is really high... you could debate him being an 8 now. But I think the tier placement is the key to putting characters where they belong in terms of balance. I think comics in general have taken powers way beyond what they should have. Pulling the adamantium out of Wolverine and manipulating the iron in everyone's blood just made Magneto even more powerful than he already was. It was a neat story twist, but now you wonder why he doesn't just drop everyone when he shows up because he could. No one should be able to stop him. I'm not a scientist, and I can't imagine the potential powers could have, but in the early days, a guy could throw snowballs or ice shards, and a girl could move stuff with her mind and read minds, or a guy could heal from wounds and he was a remarkable fighter. Now Iceman can freeze all the earth if he were so inclined, everyone knows what Jean Grey can do, and Wolverine was pretty much nuked at ground zero by Nitro, and because of one cell that wasn't evaporated, he fully regenerated to his complete hairy awesomeness. No one stays dead... not really. I was even thinking about technology in comics... they create pretty much anything they need no matter how preposterous it is. Forge is probably miserable. Beast does what only Forge should be able to do. You couldn't infiltrate the Xmansion or the Baxter Building... there's no threat anymore. Power levels and technology are just way off the charts. Even Superman was just a super man in the beginning. He was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Now he can cross the planet in no time flat, he literally can't be destroyed by anything other than kryptonite or magic (which made his Doomsday fight so awesome because it was just a huge fight), and he can actually fly rather than jump really high.
I know we're talking about OverPower and character ratings, but I'm going off on a rabbit trail to demonstrate how any character can have an 8 in their appropriate stat if someone writing them favors them. Mr. Fantastic can outfight Cap, Wolvie, Batman, Sabretooth, Zealot, Bullseye, etc. if the person writing him needs him to win the fight, and it makes sense that he could do so in the right circumstances. Character growth is cool in stories, but it would be nice if there were a true measure to how powerful a character is. The rules have been broken too many times, and now everyone is the most awesome whatever they are in comics. Why shouldn't Human Torch and Invisible Woman have 8's as well? Look at what they can do! Invisible Woman is one of the most powerful characters in ANY universe, stuck on a max 6.
I like the tier placement method for deciding stats.
Tier 1 gets an 8.
Tier 2 gets a 7.
Tier 3 gets a 6.
Inherent abilities and specials make up for exceptional and uncommon uses, and each character should have something that makes them considerable for deckbuilding.
Based on this, who do you feel would have 2 8's?
Trooper, after reading that post.
Perhaps the tiers are true and that is why this game has artifacts.
Maybe there should be an 8 stat artifact? 8 to use? 6ap teammate?
That's a fantastic post, Trooper. You hit the nail on the head; depending on the writer, or the story/situation, any character could gain level 8 power in a category or two (or three or four). After all, they are superheroes / villains. I've revised a few more characters and decided that only Superman would have the dual 8's. I have two Batman characters (standard Batman with an 8F-7I and Dark Knight Returns Batman which is 2-7-4-8) and am working on a third (Batman of Zur-En-Arrh with a possible grid of 4-7-6-3), so in my revisions I brought Batman back to a 7 Intellect.
I like the idea of Mr.Fantastic getting a Level 8 fighting special or other characters who have been shown to display high powered skills in certain stories or situations being rewarded with 'bumps' from their normal grid stats. Perhaps a better way to look at the grids is a measure of consistency. In no way would I ever place Mr.Fantastic on the same level as Batman or Deathstroke. The superpowers of Mr.Fantastic greatly enhanced his fighting ability, whereas Batman and Deathstroke are trained fighters, with Batman having no super powers at all and Deathstroke having super enhancements, which would justify their 8 fighting skill. So many X-Men and some of the Fantastic Four have often been written to showcase their incredible superpowers, but in looking at the history of Iceman or Storm or Human Torch, I think we have enough examples to justify their 7 energy rating.
No one will ever be 100% happy with the default grids, which is why I redid so many, using my own homemade characters and the characters Bios created as a base to try to perfect each character. The key is striking a balance so the tiers of 6/7/8 have balance so one doesn't end up with 20 max 6 characters and 100 8 level characters to choose from. So, for me, I'm keeping it simple and giving my only dual 8 rating to the aptly named, Superman.
what led you to make superman dual 8, and not thor? superman has planet-wrecking energy abilities, no doubt, but thor's are generally greater
batman at 7 intellect is interesting. overall, he probably could be argued to be lower than fantastic/doom, but then you run into the problem that if you drop batman to 7, you'll have a hard time justifying anyone in dc getting an 8. batman and luthor are more or less 1a and 1b when it comes to earthbound characters
I think the thing that makes Batman so intelligent is he's about where Iron Man is in tech knowledge, but on top of that he's probably the most intuitive detective in comics. Batman can beat anyone with prep time... so I'm told. No one can stop him.