For those who are familiar with Batman the Animated Series, which I hope is everyone, I am working on a homemade set based on the series. I am trying to nail down the character grids and I have some of them tentatively created. I was hoping for anyone's input on if they are okay or any suggestions for adjustments. They are listed below in the format of character e,f,s,i total.
Batgirl/Barbara Gordon 4,7,3,5 19
Batman/Bruce Wayne 3,7,4,7 21
Catwoman 2,6,4,5 17
Clayface 4,6,6,3 19
Commissioner James Gordon 5,5,3,6 19
Harvey Dent/Two-Face 4,6,4,6 20
Killer Croc 3,5,6,2 16
Maimillian "Maxie" Zeus 8,3,4,3 18
Man-Bat/Dr. Kirk Langstrom 2,5,6,6 19
Mr. Freeze 7,4,6,6 23
Nightwing 4,7,4,6 21
Poison Ivy 3,5,3,6 17
Ra's al Ghul 3,7,4,7 21
Robin/Tim Drake 4,5,3,7 19
Roland Daggett 5,5,3,7 20
Rupert Thorne 6,5,4,5 20
The Clock King 4,3,3,6 16
The Joker 5,5,4,7 21
The Mad Hatter 6,3,3,7 19
The Ninja/Kyodai Ken 4,8,4,4 20
The Penguin 5,5,3,6 19
The Riddler 5,5,3,6 19
The Scarecrow 6,5,3,7 21
Interesting. What's the motivation for changing the Grids on the existing characters? Do you feel like they got some wrong, or are you just looking to make variant character cards?
I love Batman: TAS, it would be interesting to have seen a set using the characters and art from the show.
The first thing I noticed is that you've made the majority so expensive, that it would be hard to build teams using the Sum Deck rule. Options would be limited.
I too am curious as to why you changed up existing grids... most of them were okay as is.
And of course, I also have to ask - why does Batman not have an 8? Either in Intellect or fighting?
I don't know about Maxie Zeus with an 8 energy. Yeah, he had that death cannon, but that would qualify more as a special card than his inherent grid.
There would definitely be a shortage of energy characters, but certainly Rupert Thorne wouldn't have a 6 energy. All the gangsters would be intellect/fighting. Most of the characters would. I liked Mr. Freeze, those are good stats, though a 23 pt 7 stat character would need brutal specials. I guess that would be your next step, is redesigning specials for each?
-BBH
As far as new stats for existing characters: I am not necessarily interested in giving the characters that already have cards new grids. I am interested in playing around with those grids to closely match the show. In the end, if the grids of those characters are very close to the original cards then I'll just go with the original cards. I do, however, want to include inherent abilities which will likely affect grids later on. At the moment I am just trying to get a basic idea of each character.
As far as the cost of characters go, another thing I am planning on doing is making location cards for the set. The high cost of the characters I've listed is actually intentional for that reason and one other. In the show and the comics, really, a team-up of the strongest personalities is rare. The idea that you would get the Joker, Two-Face, the Penguin, and the Riddler all together working on one plan seems unlikely. Instead I have plans on making a lot of other supporting heroes and villains with lower costs to off-set the higher cost characters.
As far as Batman: he is a tough one. I mean, he beats all these other guys on a regular basis. So I'm inclined to give him an 8 fighting and a 7 intellect, but he has peak physical strength too, which from what I've gathered in Overpower for a regular, non-powered human, is somewhere between 4 and 5. Then he has his gadgets and stuff that give him some energy-like attacks. The guy is really amazing. On the other-hand, I'm re-watching episodes of the show for this project and because I just do that periodically, and I see him getting tricked by the joker or running into the middle of a trap or taking hits from a group of thugs. It makes me think that it's not necessarily that he needs to have all high stats so much as a good solid grid and specials as well as teammates to back him up in order for him to win all these battles. But you are definitely right. I really need to spend some time playing with his grid to get him right.
You totally got me on Maxie. I looked at my cards and I was like, yeah, I need an 8 energy. I'm starting to see the wisdom in DC's decision to release Batman/Superman as a set for their first Overpower expansion. It makes so much sense. Batman stuff tends to be fighting/intellect and Superman stuff tends to be energy/strength, much like the men themselves. I am seriously considering doing the same or at least making a sister set for the other show. I will definitely tone down Zeus though.
As for the gangs. I am actually looking at Thorne, Daggat, and such as gangs instead of individuals. You are right that the gangs would be less energy, usually. But in the show there are lots of times where they have things like laser weapons, chemical weapons, things like that. I'm not sure what all qualifies as energy or fighting but I am trying to work that out. I do see the gangs as having a somewhat more diverse grid because of things like at one point Thorne hires Bane. Okay, so maybe that gives him an interesting special, but if you think about it, it doesn't have to be an isolated incident. Thorne has money and lots of it. He can higher all kinds of muscle, so that is what I am looking for as I re-watch the show is indications of a tendency to hire goons who tend more toward certain stats. I agree, though, that the stats need work which is why I am very happy for the input.
Mr. Freeze! What an amazing character for Overpower that never got made. He's so perfect for the game. You are totally correct that he is going to need some kick-ass specials, but he'll get a position on at least one location as well. He could also be balanced with an inherent ability for deck-building or something along those lines, but I kind of feel like those inherents are almost cheating or at least kind of cheap.
For specials, I don't want to load up characters that already have specials with a lot of new ones. Maybe even as few as 1 or 2 each, whereas I want to give the characters without previous cards a full compliment. Basically, for existing Overpower characters I want to give them specials that add in the unique flavor of the show. Also, I have some ideas for this set that go beyond just making new cards in the existing framework. I want to make it a true expansion by adding a new angle to gameplay that will benefit both older and newer cards. So it's not just going to be a set full of AA, AR, AS specials, but it's also not going to be something off the wall that makes it impossible to reconcile with the existing game.
The list of characters that I am still working on coming up with stats for is:
Baby Doll
Bane
HARDAC
Harley Quinn
Hugo Strange
Jonah Hex
Lock-Up
Red Claw
Sewer King
Talia al Ghul
The Gray Ghost/Simon Trent
The Ventriloquist/Arnolde Wesker
Zatanna
That's not everyone I plan on including from the series, just what I've come up with so far. Not all of them will get hero cards, obviously. Some of them will specials, or allies, or missions. Like HARDAC I see as being a mission with some very fun Event cards.
Thanks for the input. I still crave more and I will post changes and additions as they come about.
I am trying to figure out stats for characters still and I am wondering if anyone has an opinion of what certain stats entail. For instance, if I present a strength scale like this:
0-1 - No strength, e.g. Professor X in a wheel chair, up to very weak human, e.g. Penguin who is out of shape and doesn't really do anything physical
2-3 - Normal to fit human strength, e.g. Joker or Lex Luthor
4 - Limit of normal human strength, e.g. Batman, Cyclops
5 - Unusually strong human up to slightly enhanced strength, e.g. Wolverine, Kingpin
6 - Superhuman but not someone Wolverine couldn't go toe-to-toe with, e.g. Sabretooth, Spider-man
7 - Really strong, robots, super-enhanced beings, e.g. Sentinels, Iron Man
8 - Off the charts strong, e.g. The Hulk, Superman
I know at times Overpower doesn't always represent everyone with this kind of a scale for the sake of balancing cards, but does something like this look right? Also I am particularly at a loss for Energy. What makes an energy stat? I feel like the other three I understand, but why does Bane have 1 energy and Catwoman has 3? What does that mean exactly?
i'm with you on energy...i don't get why some characters get it and others don't
i mean, i love using quicksilver in my asteroid m deck, but imo he should be strictly a fighting character (flash too)
another problem with energy, is that if you use this scale, it's pretty void in the middle
you've got guys like prof x, magneto, strange, fate (at least he should be) at 8. cyclops et al at 7.
then what? people like fire and ice and 6 and jubilee downgraded to 5? then what makes up a 2/3/4...weapons/gimmicks?
i don't know
I think, in general, they determine that SPEED translates as Energy. Quicksilver, Flash, Velocity, Nightcrawler... even Superman shouldn't have a 7E strictly based on his heat vision (IMO). Obviously, there is some discrepency, but that's where I think the game balance had to come into play. Obviously, Nightcrawler is the "fastest", being able to teleport, so should his be an 8E? I'm not sure his Speed/Energy helps him quite so innately. Flash can move at just less than teleportation speed, but it's much more constant - in that regard, I'd say he deserves a 7E more than Quicksilver... Superman is a combination of his Speed and his actual Energy projection, so I figure his 7 is about right...
Anyway, Energy and Intellect are much harder to pin-down, in terms of how to quantify them in a card game. If you're simply looking for a guideline for how to rate Intellect and a straight Energy projection/production, you could check out the Marvel Metal card series. It had "flash" cards that had a scale of each rating on the back of them. Pretty cool reference.
I can see speed being grouped in with fighting more than I can see it with energy though. Speed would let you dodge a bullet or land a punch, but it's not going to stop a laser or blast a whole in a tank or something. I actually have an easier time with intellect. In that regard, I see intellect as how clever they are at fighting. Like, would you think Captain America is a really smart guy in general? I would say no, but he is a tactical genius, so he should have decent intellect. And Lex Luthor is smart, but not like super-genius, but when it comes to using his intellect to hurt others, he's really good at that, so high intellect there.
For energy it is also tough because, let's say a character shoots laser, e.g. cyclops, superman. Sure, that's energy. Okay, but let's say someone holds a laser gun. Is that energy or fighting? It's a weapon, so fighting, but a laser so energy. Look at the card laser. That's a fighting universe card. But look at some of the laser weapon specials. They tend to be energy. And you are totally right, breadmaster, about the middle of energy. But I would extend that to the bottom end too. What are these energy ratings really measuring? Like, for most 1s I get what they are saying. These guys are just regular tough/strong/smart guys but they have no energy powers. But then, why do the 2s have energy, or even the 3s? Look at some of them! Like Wolverine? 2 energy means what exactly? Is it because he heals? Because that's really just a special ability represented by a special card. But then I was thinking, maybe it could mean how well they would take an energy attack or defend against one. Let's say Wolverine has a 2 energy because he can shrug off level 2 energy attacks. But does that apply with any other power type? And then 3-4 is the worst. Like, the riddler has a 3. Why is that? What could that mean for him? And he has a 3 and so does Juggernaut? He's just big and unstoppable. Nothing beyond that. And then look at 4. The Blob has a 4, but then so does Green Goblin. Green Goblin shoots lasers! The Blob is fat?
So, yeah, I'm stumped on energy. I guess even if I could figure out what Overpower meant by energy I could just use that. I was thinking of giving the gangs a decent energy rating because I figure, whatever it is, they can afford/steal it. Even if I don't know what it is.
Quote from: Palatinus on April 07, 2011, 03:16:52 PM
So, yeah, I'm stumped on energy. I guess even if I could figure out what Overpower meant by energy I could just use that. I was thinking of giving the gangs a decent energy rating because I figure, whatever it is, they can afford/steal it. Even if I don't know what it is.
Jumping on over from the art thread it is interesting that Casey Jones, who drew the DC Energy power cards, produced prelims of 8
Agility cards -
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g443/thenorrin_radd/Met.jpg)
Most of these were then used for the energy power cards. I'm not sure what this means. Was it a failure in communication? Was Agility being considered as the 4th power type before Intellect? Or, was it simply that Agility was the way that the Energy power was described to him. Thinking of Energy in terms of Agility seems to make more sense for the lower values and then the higher values are reserved for those individuals with some special psychic or energy powers.
Quote from: Palatinus on April 07, 2011, 03:16:52 PM
I can see speed being grouped in with fighting more than I can see it with energy though. Speed would let you dodge a bullet or land a punch, but it's not going to stop a laser or blast a whole in a tank or something. I actually have an easier time with intellect. In that regard, I see intellect as how clever they are at fighting. Like, would you think Captain America is a really smart guy in general? I would say no, but he is a tactical genius, so he should have decent intellect. And Lex Luthor is smart, but not like super-genius, but when it comes to using his intellect to hurt others, he's really good at that, so high intellect there.
For energy it is also tough because, let's say a character shoots laser, e.g. cyclops, superman. Sure, that's energy. Okay, but let's say someone holds a laser gun. Is that energy or fighting? It's a weapon, so fighting, but a laser so energy. Look at the card laser. That's a fighting universe card. But look at some of the laser weapon specials. They tend to be energy. And you are totally right, breadmaster, about the middle of energy. But I would extend that to the bottom end too. What are these energy ratings really measuring? Like, for most 1s I get what they are saying. These guys are just regular tough/strong/smart guys but they have no energy powers. But then, why do the 2s have energy, or even the 3s? Look at some of them! Like Wolverine? 2 energy means what exactly? Is it because he heals? Because that's really just a special ability represented by a special card. But then I was thinking, maybe it could mean how well they would take an energy attack or defend against one. Let's say Wolverine has a 2 energy because he can shrug off level 2 energy attacks. But does that apply with any other power type? And then 3-4 is the worst. Like, the riddler has a 3. Why is that? What could that mean for him? And he has a 3 and so does Juggernaut? He's just big and unstoppable. Nothing beyond that. And then look at 4. The Blob has a 4, but then so does Green Goblin. Green Goblin shoots lasers! The Blob is fat?
So, yeah, I'm stumped on energy. I guess even if I could figure out what Overpower meant by energy I could just use that. I was thinking of giving the gangs a decent energy rating because I figure, whatever it is, they can afford/steal it. Even if I don't know what it is.
It seems energy may have something to do with being able to affect something without actually touching it with your hands. For instance you may think quicksilver and flash should only have fighting, but if you met them in person and they just ran around you in circles you might think that was a pretty effective energy attack. Same thing could be said for how nightcrawler could disorient you by grabbing you and teleporting or just repeatedly teleporting and attacking you from different angels. Brue lee would have a 7 or 8 fighting, Nightcrawler is doing more than just fighting. Spiderman's acrobatics mixed with his fighting have the same effect. For blob or juggernaut I do think it has more to do with absorbing an attack. For batman, the riddler and all the other 'regular' people it must be the tricks up their sleeve/utility belt. I guess throwing a tasmanian devil firework or smoke bomb on the floor in the middle of a house party would be a level 1/2 energy attack. :D
Take this clip from the old cartoon. You could argue blob's first attack on cyclops is a level 1 intellect attack or a level 1/2 energy attack. The second attack on rogue would definitely
slide as a level 4 'energy' attack. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHu5TJYDA0&t=3m56s
That's a good interpretation and I'm not trying to say that these people shouldn't have energy ratings. I just am trying to get a grasp on it so I can make cards that reflect the games intent as well as the character design and energy is the one I am having the most trouble with. For a lot of the characters it feels like it was added arbitrarily. I like the idea of being "affecting things without touching them", but that would still not really apply to the speedsters. Really, that would be a combination of fighting and intellect to make it seem like they are not touching things. But if energy is related to the energy like the speed force that the flash uses, then that would make sense as energy. Like, if we say things that are fueled by extra-physical forces are energy that might make sense. As for the Blob being able to absorb energy attacks giving him his energy rating it would make energy less like the other stats when you measure they use on a scale and more like love level energy stuff is two things tricks or techniques that are energy like but then also ones ability to absorb/handle energy hits and then mid-level energy would be more like low-level energy stuff or high energy tolerance and then high energy is blowing things up like cyclops. If that is a fairly consistent description then I can work with that.
with the mid-level energy ratings, I'd say it has to do with how commonly a person uses an energy type weapon. For example, Deadpool always has guns. Batman always has... something on his belt... Wolverine can make those spark-things like from the intro to the X-Men animated show!
As for some of the others, like Juggernaut, think of it in terms of the physics terms of kinetic energy. It's more than just strength that's involved in Juggernaut's punch. He's called the Juggernaut because once he starts moving, he can't stop. That's a rule of energy not necessarily power/force. That's why I mentioned the speed correlation.
Also, for your purposes, whenever the comics or other media fail to give you a reference point, just wing-it and go with game balance. I mean, otherwise, you'd have lots of people that would be 11 or 12 4-stat characters...
I actually think what you're saying about game balance and winging it is more in line with what the game developers wound up doing with energy as well. It does seem to be the hardest to quantify and that makes it a great dumping ground for balancing characters.
Not sure why the blob link wasn't active so here it is again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHu5TJYDA0&t=3m56s
Here's another clip from the old cartoon with quicksilver using what would have to be an 'energy' attack. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahEBgi2-f9k&t=1m48s
Quote from: Nostalgic on April 08, 2011, 01:12:28 PM
Not sure why the blob link wasn't active so here it is again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHu5TJYDA0&t=3m56s
Here's another clip from the old cartoon with quicksilver using what would have to be an 'energy' attack. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahEBgi2-f9k&t=1m48s
I really love that show.
Quote from: Palatinus on April 08, 2011, 01:15:08 PM
I really love that show.
Yea back in the day I would record each episode and watch it over and over.
It's why I recall which episodes give specific examples of different 'abilites'... 200 years later! :D
I could probably find some of those old VHS :o tapes if I looked through some old boxes. O course these days I'm sure they're on dvd somewhere. 8)
I re-watch the show all the time and the Nostalgia Critic and the Nostalgia Chick just did reviews of it which took me back to the good old days of Marvel animation.
QuoteAlso I am particularly at a loss for Energy. What makes an energy stat? I feel like the other three I understand, but why does Bane have 1 energy and Catwoman has 3? What does that mean exactly?
There are exceptions, as there always is in Overpower, but to me it seems the Energy scale is as follows:
1-A normal unarmed human
2-Enhanced sensory perception (Wolverine, Daredevil, Sabretooth, Beast) or a character who uses a simple projectile weapon (Captain America, most superstrong characters who throw heavy things etc).
3-A character who uses guns and other conventional weapons regularly (Punisher, Deadpool) or has a mix of both portions of level 2 (Spiderman with Spidersense and web-shooters; Taskmaster with both photographic memory and a replica shield like Cap's).
4-The hardest number to define. It seems to be hereos who have energy as a seconday power (Blob technically has an ability to contol his mass, he can also stick to the ground he's standing on). Shapeshifters without projection attacks also to seem to fall around this number too (Mr. Sinister and Alpha Flight both have 4's; although Dracula only has a 3 perhaps because he only turns into a bat). There are a few more gun types in this stat also like Silver Sable and Deathlock although how Sable uses more guns than Puisher is beyond me.
5 - Laser-based energy weapons that do no exist in the real world. Usually these heroes are generating energy attacks by artificial means (Iron Man, Dr. Doom, Hydra, Shiar) instead of super-powers. We also have the second level of shapeshifters at this number, those who also have projection attacks in addition to their shape-shifting (Apocalypse, Mystique with her guns, Venom and Carnage with their webbing or spikes, etc)
6-Characters with either defensive energy powers (Flash's speed, Nightcrawler's teleporting, Shadowcat's phasing, Invisible Woman & Reyes' force fields) or energy projection attacks of an obviously lesser nature (Jubillee, Gambit) when compared to the next level.
7 - Characters who can make massive offensive energy attacks. Cyclops, Havok, Storm, Torch- destroying a building or even city block is not out of the question for these heroes. Also most lesser telepath and magic users are here (White Queen, Jean Grey, Baron Mordo)
8- Characters who can manipulate energy (and sometimes matter too)on a global or even cosmic scale. (Pro X, Magneto, Dark Pheonix, Onslaught)
Quite interesting. I also was a bit confused by how Overpower defined energy. In my mind I restricted it to the definitions you used in 5 and up, and basically scaled it up and down based on how powerful those abilities were. I lumped your descriptions for 4 and down into fighting skill. For instance, I figured for a guy like Two-face to have six fighting, it must come mostly from weaponry, but I suppose it more likely comes from henchmen?
At any rate, your descriptions for energy seem pretty good. I'm pretty sure they tweaked the numbers for gameplay reasons which is why some don't scale perfectly.
Quote from: The Dude on April 10, 2011, 04:02:55 PM
QuoteAlso I am particularly at a loss for Energy. What makes an energy stat? I feel like the other three I understand, but why does Bane have 1 energy and Catwoman has 3? What does that mean exactly?
There are exceptions, as there always is in Overpower, but to me it seems the Energy scale is as follows:
1-A normal unarmed human
2-Enhanced sensory perception (Wolverine, Daredevil, Sabretooth, Beast) or a character who uses a simple projectile weapon (Captain America, most superstrong characters who throw heavy things etc).
3-A character who uses guns and other conventional weapons regularly (Punisher, Deadpool) or has a mix of both portions of level 2 (Spiderman with Spidersense and web-shooters; Taskmaster with both photographic memory and a replica shield like Cap's).
4-The hardest number to define. It seems to be hereos who have energy as a seconday power (Blob technically has an ability to contol his mass, he can also stick to the ground he's standing on). Shapeshifters without projection attacks also to seem to fall around this number too (Mr. Sinister and Alpha Flight both have 4's; although Dracula only has a 3 perhaps because he only turns into a bat). There are a few more gun types in this stat also like Silver Sable and Deathlock although how Sable uses more guns than Puisher is beyond me.
5 - Laser-based energy weapons that do no exist in the real world. Usually these heroes are generating energy attacks by artificial means (Iron Man, Dr. Doom, Hydra, Shiar) instead of super-powers. We also have the second level of shapeshifters at this number, those who also have projection attacks in addition to their shape-shifting (Apocalypse, Mystique with her guns, Venom and Carnage with their webbing or spikes, etc)
6-Characters with either defensive energy powers (Flash's speed, Nightcrawler's teleporting, Shadowcat's phasing, Invisible Woman & Reyes' force fields) or energy projection attacks of an obviously lesser nature (Jubillee, Gambit) when compared to the next level.
7 - Characters who can make massive offensive energy attacks. Cyclops, Havok, Storm, Torch- destroying a building or even city block is not out of the question for these heroes. Also most lesser telepath and magic users are here (White Queen, Jean Grey, Baron Mordo)
8- Characters who can manipulate energy (and sometimes matter too)on a global or even cosmic scale. (Pro X, Magneto, Dark Pheonix, Onslaught)
This really great and really helpful. Thanks!
Also if you had a similar scale worked out of the other power types I would love to hear it.
I always thought this was kind of cool, and it's somewhat similar to the stats that Overpower ended up with:
(http://i.imgur.com/htAUs.jpg)
Cool. Do you happen to know what year this is from?
Quote from: JohnL on April 11, 2011, 01:50:01 AM
Cool. Do you happen to know what year this is from?
1981, in Amazing Spider-Man Annual # 15.
The second series of the Marvel Universe trading cards was another cool source for statistic debates:
(http://i.imgur.com/6SCJJ.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/aclFa.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gp8xA.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/5MXwu.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/TfLU3.jpg)
Uhm, Thanos sure is heavy...
Those are some really great posts, Onslaught. I guess I hadn't thought to look into all those guides they are always putting out. I love how campy the ones you posted are. It's lines like those that always have me laughing at the older comics. That and the letters section. Some of that stuff is golden.