Palatinus' OverPower Forum

1 - A normal unarmed human

2 - Enhanced sensory perception (Wolverine, Daredevil, Sabretooth, Beast) or a character who uses a simple projectile weapon (Captain America, characters who throw heavy things etc).

3 - A character who uses guns and other conventional weapons regularly (Punisher, Deadpool) or has a mix of both portions of level 2 (Spiderman with Spider sense and web-shooters).

4 - The hardest number to define. It seems to be heroes who have energy as a secondary power (Blob technically has an ability to control his mass). Shape shifters without projection attacks also to seem to fall around this number too (Mr. Sinister and Alpha Flight both have 4's). There are a few more gun types in this stat also like Silver Sable and Deathlock although how Sable uses more guns than Punisher is beyond me.

5 - Laser-based energy weapons that do not exist in the real world. Usually these heroes are generating energy attacks by artificial means (Iron Man, Dr. Doom, Hydra, Shiar) instead of super-powers. We also have the second level of shape shifters at this number, those who also have projection attacks in addition to their shape-shifting (Apocalypse, Mystique with her guns, Venom and Carnage with their webbing or spikes)

6 - Characters with either defensive energy powers (Flash's speed, Nightcrawler's teleporting, Shadowcat's phasing, Invisible Woman & Reyes' force fields) or energy projection attacks of an obviously lesser nature (Jubillee, Gambit) when compared to the next level.

7 - Characters who can make massive offensive energy attacks. Cyclops, Havok, Storm, Torch- destroying a building or even city block is not out of the question for these heroes. Also most lesser telepath and magic users are here (White Queen, Jean Grey, Baron Mordo)

8- Characters who can manipulate energy (and sometimes matter too)on a global or even cosmic scale. (Pro X, Magneto, Dark Pheonix, Onslaught)


COMING SOON


1 jubilee (lifts body weight and under)

2 green arrow (regular-fit human)

3 captain America (~ton)

4 Limit of normal human strength, Batman, Cyclops, beast (~10 tons)

5 Unusually strong human up to slightly enhanced strength, e.g. Wolverine, Kingpin(10-50 tons)

6 Superhuman Very enhanced (50-100 tons)

7 Really strong, robots, super-enhanced beings, e.g. Sentinels, Iron Man, thing (~100 tons)

8 Off the charts strong, e.g. The Hulk, Superman (super-heavyweights)


1 (Below 50 IQ) – [Profound mental retardation] - No grasp, childlike (X-Babies, Doppelganger), killer puppet (sentinels)

2 (50 – 69) – [Mild mental retardation] - Brainwashed, full of rage, no heed to repercussions – {Symbiote Spidey, Black Queen Malice, Angel: HoA}

3 (70 – 79) – [Borderline Deficiency] Normal intelligence level – {Many examples}

4 (80 – 89) – [Low Normal] Uses intelligence as a small but important tool during life {Black Cat, GL}

5 (90 – 109) -  [Superior Normal] – Slight Scientific intelligence, Professional career (Lawyer, cop) {GCPD, She-Hulk}

6 (110 – 119) – [Superior] - Mad man, High Scientific intelligence, mind is key to using powers, Calculated – {Aquaman, Black Widow, and Vision}

7 (120 – 139) – [Genius] – Ruler, Supreme scientist, - {Pym, Iron Man, Red Skull}

8 (Over 140) – [Super Genius] – God complexes, Super Computer - {Malebogia, Dracula, Mr. Sinister, Cerebro}


Other things I noticed:
Level 21 characters = E2, F2, S3, I3 at least
Level 22+ characters = E3, F2, S3, I4 at least

I think your strength and intellect stats are a little off for overpower.
Strength:
1 (Jubilee, Prof X): Weak human or girl strength
2-3 (various) : Fit human female-male range
4 (Captain America, Hawkeye, Havok): Peak human
5 (Wolverine, Kingpin, Deadpool): Enhanced Peak human due to adamantium skeleton, drugs, or abnormal physiology.

For Intellect, as it relates to overpower, I think all of your stats are too low.
I'm sure a 1i doesn't represent 'profound mental retardation'.  The character may be stupid, or a highschool drop, or just doesn't use any real intellectual strategy in fighing.

Intellect:
1 (Rhino, Blob, Xbabies) Uneducated child or what I mentioned above.
2-3 (various) I think this is your average range (highschoolers to College)
4 (Above average) Various reasons to be here from complex reasoning during a fight (tactical as opposed to strategic) to extensive knowlege of some specialty or specialties.
( 5 and above ) I think your 5 and up are closer to accurate, but I'm not sure the IQ numbers would translate that way. I think overpower includes leadership ability (more strategic than tactical) and mystical knowlege in this range as well. (Scarlet Witch, Mandarin, Cyclops, Havok)

As a side note the "leadership ability" thing is the only reason I can think that Captain America would have a 6 intellect. So he can operate the teamworks and to represent his strategic thinking / ability to inspire.

Quote from: Nostalgic on May 14, 2012, 10:21:48 AM
I think your strength and intellect stats are a little off for overpower.
Strength:
1 (Jubilee, Prof X): Weak human or girl strength
2-3 (various) : Fit human female-male range
4 (Captain America, Hawkeye, Havok): Peak human
5 (Wolverine, Kingpin, Deadpool): Enhanced Peak human due to adamantium skeleton, drugs, or abnormal physiology.

For Intellect, as it relates to overpower, I think all of your stats are too low.
I'm sure a 1i doesn't represent 'profound mental retardation'.  The character may be stupid, or a highschool drop, or just doesn't use any real intellectual strategy in fighing.

Intellect:
1 (Rhino, Blob, Xbabies) Uneducated child or what I mentioned above.
2-3 (various) I think this is your average range (highschoolers to College)
4 (Above average) Various reasons to be here from complex reasoning during a fight (tactical as opposed to strategic) to extensive knowlege of some specialty or specialties.
( 5 and above ) I think your 5 and up are closer to accurate, but I'm not sure the IQ numbers would translate that way. I think overpower includes leadership ability (more strategic than tactical) and mystical knowlege in this range as well. (Scarlet Witch, Mandarin, Cyclops, Havok)

As a side note the "leadership ability" thing is the only reason I can think that Captain America would have a 6 intellect. So he can operate the teamworks and to represent his strategic thinking / ability to inspire.

yeah, i agree that the Str/Int are a little off.

For the strength, the limit of a normal human is probably about 1 ton (have you seen any Strong Man competitions?). Also, Beast is much stronger than Batman or Cyke and clearly stronger than Wolverine or Kingpin. Specific to [Marvel] Overpower, there are only 4 non-enhanced, non-mutants with a 5 strength (Falcon, KaZar, Kingpin and Shang-Chi).

My problem with the intellect scale here is the use of the traditional IQ rating. I've taken several IQ tests and have always scored pretty high, but in Overpower or in a fight, there's no way I'm a 7 or 8 and I'd have a hard time convincing most of my friends to give me a 6, despite my IQ test scores  :P

I do, however, think that you hit the Energy ratings very, very well.

In general, there are always mis-ratings, even with a system. Sometimes it's clearly for balance, sometimes it's probably an oversight. Sometimes, it's definitely a difference between who writes the comics and who made the game/cards.
E - Certainly, The Flash and Nightcrawler are both faster than Quicksilver  :o
F - How does Storm being neutralized raise her fighting ability? Did she lose it once she regained her powers?  :-\
S - Invisible Woman is stronger than her husband... ???
I - Cyclops has always been a great tactitian, field leader, and planner, at least as much as Captain America or Kingpin  :'(

something I noticed: I like emoticons  ;) ;D 8)

Hey guys, thanks for the input. If you want to append to my lists please make a definition were each number is defined individually, not as a range.

Note: take this into consideration, there are cards named "Training" that enhance a power card attack from a character with a 4 or lower. this is to say that any character with a 1-4 is a trainee. 3-4 shouldn't be pro and expert.

General guideline on ranks:
1-4 = Training
5 = High ability, not a master nor a trainee
6-7 = Master of said ability
8 = Grand master of said ability, Best in the world or universe. Incalculable


About sums:
15 for a 4 rank would be a person who has no 6 stat. (Only X-babies)

16 should be the minimum with one 6 stat.

4 rank characters are between 16 and 23, anyone higher than 23 has an
ability that makes them 23 or less.

Galactus is 24 whether he has 4 or 3 ranks due to his inherit ability.

Other things I noticed:
Level 21 characters = E2, F2, S3, I3 at least
Level 22+ characters = E3, F2, S3, I4 at least

I did the energy definiations everyone is so fond of (thanks), so let me throw a few thoughts in:

One thing to remember is it's fairly clear that anything 1-4 is what normal people in the real world could have in any skill. That's why in energy for example Punisher who uses every real world weapon known to man still can't crack above 4, whereas Hydra who uses Laser guns have a 5. Admittedly this gets a little more tricky with Fighting since most of the fighting characters are technically human in the comics but less face it comic physics are still much different than real world physics so that low-level 6 fighting comic characters like say Silver Sable or Robin can still do things that humans in the real world can't like traveling cities by leaping rooftops or dodging bullets with a forward roll.

So with that mind a few number clarficiations based on cards in the actual game (not homemades or fantasy reboots).

In strength I would say 3 is the a physically fit female (not necessaruly) peak human. Look at most of the female characters in this game such as the X-men's various female energy manipulators they all have 3's except for Jubillee who is a juvenile and Jean Grey who can lift stuff with her mind and thus probably doesn't excercise/weight train as much as the others. I mean Dazzler is an ideal example of the 3S: she can roller skate and perform rock concerts, which is means she is in good cardio shape but is anyone really going to argue the disco-singer who is a reluctant super hero at best is really a female olympic level athlete?

Ditto the 4S is just an athletically fit male, not peak human-olympic. Yea Cap and Batman are there but so are most of the male energy manipulators like Havok and Torch (show me one comic where Torch has ever been shown exercising--he's clearly not an Olympic level athlete). So yea I'd say the evidence in the game is 4 is just a male in good athletic shape; whereas someone like Hank Pym who spends all day in the lab and can enhance his strength artifically by growing and has no need to exercise is only a 3.

The 5S is intended to be low-level superhuman strength. And yes there are few characters who the comics say have no superpowers that have this stat; but they routinely superhuman feats. Ka-Zar wrestles dinosaurs, including T-Rex's to the ground, sometimes one handed because he's holding a knife in his other hand. I'd be willing to bet that if T-Rex's existed in the real world even Mark Henry is not going to be pulling them down to the ground one-handed.  Ditto Kingpin who defeated Spiderman in hand to hand combat on two occassions in books reprinted in the Essentials that I've read (once in the ASM160s ang again around issue 200). Spidey as we all know can life 10 tons and routinley picks up cars with ease so that means Kingpin is in his ballpark. In PPTSM 100 he tears a staircase out the wall and throws his Spidey, who compares fighting Kingpin to the Juggernaut. So yea he's technically human but only because of comic book physics.

Finally a note on Intellect. I think 1 is the OP stat meant for characters who are dumb (as well as those barely evolved animals such as Killer Croc). But Intellect 2 is clearly not stupidity but impulsiveness (or hot-headedness). Look at the 2's in intellect: Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Sabretooth, Malice, Rogue. Would anyone say these characters are dumb? I mean Hawkeye led the West Coast Avengers and outsmarted the Grandmaster in one of my favorite Avengers stories so he's clearly not an idiot. But they all have a tendency to attack/react first and then strategize only if that fails.

Quote from: The Dude on May 21, 2012, 03:00:28 PMFinally a note on Intellect. I think 1 is the OP stat meant for characters who are dumb (as well as those barely evolved animals such as Killer Croc). But Intellect 2 is clearly not stupidity but impulsiveness (or hot-headedness). Look at the 2's in intellect: Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Sabretooth, Malice, Rogue. Would anyone say these characters are dumb? I mean Hawkeye led the West Coast Avengers and outsmarted the Grandmaster in one of my favorite Avengers stories so he's clearly not an idiot. But they all have a tendency to attack/react first and then strategize only if that fails.

Great points on the intellect stat. Never thought about "impulsiveness." It also strengthens my thoughts on intellect not just being a measure of smarts, but also strategic vs tactical leadership/thinking among other things.  It's partially the 'intangibles' stat.  8)

I really like what I am reading here. It makes me thinking about creating a rating system to help me building my sets.

Some opinions:

a) Many of you are trying to fit the original grids into a standard scale, while the game designers didn't seem to use a scale back in the time. That being said, many of the existing characters won't fit in your new system. We just have to accept the fact that many stats are actually wrong!

b) If you use the 16~23 sum grid system, sometimes you just need to increase or decrease a stat in order to fit your character into that sum. I don't see it as a big deal, I mean, if you give a 2 instead of a 4.

c) Even with a rating system, there will be some level of subjectiveness and not everyone will think the same. For example, I don't think Cyclops is as good as Captain in tactics and leadership and not even close to the Kingpin. Those are just my opinions!

hmm, i still need to do the fighting stats.

Quote from: Bios on June 12, 2012, 09:02:38 PM
I really like what I am reading here. It makes me thinking about creating a rating system to help me building my sets.

Some opinions:
...

c) Even with a rating system, there will be some level of subjectiveness and not everyone will think the same. For example, I don't think Cyclops is as good as Captain in tactics and leadership and not even close to the Kingpin. Those are just my opinions!

have you read many of the older X-Men comics? like, pre-1985? So many of those books referred to Cyke's abilities as a tactician and the fights would actually show him directing and leading his team, like calling out various attack formations and defensive maneuvers. That's definitely something that they stopped doing with him in the writing of comics (which goes back to my point about the difference between various writers/creators).

Not trying to be argumentative, I was genuinely curious. You might enjoy going back to see the difference in tempo and writing for the old-school comics. I haven't read hardly any Captain America or Kingpin comics, myself (as a comparison).

Quote from: Bios on June 12, 2012, 09:02:38 PM
c) Even with a rating system, there will be some level of subjectiveness and not everyone will think the same. For example, I don't think Cyclops is as good as Captain in tactics and leadership and not even close to the Kingpin. Those are just my opinions!

He's not in the game either. Cyclop is a 5i and Cap and Kingpin are a 6... Again as I said earlier I think some characters have a 5 as opposed to a 4 due to their leadership abilities and some like spiderman have a 5 based on 'pure' intellect. (yes spiderman could be argued for a 6 as kingpin might be argued for a 7) I think the fact that Cap has a 6i is a testimate to how great of a leader/strategist he is because it couldn't possiblely due to 'pure' intellect. 

Much like in the Hawkeye example of an intellect stat being lowered to reflect his 'impulsiveness' I think it can also be raised to reflect more of a planner. It is all subjective though.

Quote from: ncannelora on June 13, 2012, 01:13:10 PM

Quote from: Bios on June 12, 2012, 09:02:38 PM
I really like what I am reading here. It makes me thinking about creating a rating system to help me building my sets.

Some opinions:
...

c) Even with a rating system, there will be some level of subjectiveness and not everyone will think the same. For example, I don't think Cyclops is as good as Captain in tactics and leadership and not even close to the Kingpin. Those are just my opinions!

have you read many of the older X-Men comics? like, pre-1985? So many of those books referred to Cyke's abilities as a tactician and the fights would actually show him directing and leading his team, like calling out various attack formations and defensive maneuvers. That's definitely something that they stopped doing with him in the writing of comics (which goes back to my point about the difference between various writers/creators).

Not trying to be argumentative, I was genuinely curious. You might enjoy going back to see the difference in tempo and writing for the old-school comics. I haven't read hardly any Captain America or Kingpin comics, myself (as a comparison).

You are right, Cyke is a field leader and a great tactician. Not only back in the days, but he's turning into a mutant leader in latest arcs. I won't see a problem if Cyke's intellect stats were raised to 6.

(http://i.imgur.com/fCZPl.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/XgfVm.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ISpXw.jpg)


Cap is also a great tactician. Check out how he out-thinks Iron Man on Civil War:

(http://i.imgur.com/xzXsH.jpg)

But in my opinion, Cap's greatest advantage against Cyc is his leadership. People really respect him and can follow him to death if he asks too. Not saying that he is a better leader, but that people really respect and follow him, like a living legend!

(http://i.imgur.com/esOHn.jpg)

This one is classic:

(http://i.imgur.com/1IBb7.jpg)

respect

This is an interesting conversation. With so many variations, reboots, and storylines even the comics are inconsistent about the limits and potential of characters' abilities.

@ Bios -

yeah, I'll give Cap' the nod on leadership. It's almost like a mutant ability of his (like Gambit's charm, almost). In that regard, though, aren't there Specials that rep that? Sentinel of Liberty and Inspiration? Anyway, it's a small quibble, and the first (but not the only) example that came to mind for Intellect rating variances.

@ mattkoz -

too true! as a Gambit fanboy, this is why I had so much trouble making him any variant/custom cards. Reading through his own series (Gambit #1-25), you could easily argue for him to be a 7-7-3-4. But then, I start thinking about Cable. Obviously, Cable>Gambit in terms of abilities and powers, so then I'm like, well then Cable must be changed as well! lol.

My brother is a Cyclops fan and he pointed to about a dozen instances where Cyclops' fighting is clearly a 5, maybe even a 6 (with references like Cyclops being a Judo master  :o), but again, that's over a period of 40 years worth of different writers and different concepts/stories.

In general, this is part of my beef with current comic books (mutants, in particular). There are so many "omega level" mutants being created... every new character is the new best whatever, and it makes it pretty boring to me.

Here's how I see it.

Sometimes in these discussions a person will cite a specific example (e.g., "remember that one time HERO lifted HUGE OBJECT..." or "well, HERO 1 defeated HERO 2 using EXTREME AND RARE EXAMPLE OF POWER").

Instead of using rare examples like these to justify a power grid stretch, maybe that's a better example of a big-hitting special like a 9F or 11ANY, etc.

I think of the grids as a baseline. Sure, I disagree with a few and like some of the tweaks and variants I've seen here in the homemade threads, but just because the Blob might have a moment of clairvoyance doesn't mean he still isn't a moron. Is Cyclops capable of a significant energy production? Yep, and that's why we have Remove Visor.

Rather than redo a lot of grids, I'm in favor of more creative special cards.

Quote from: mattkoz on June 14, 2012, 03:27:31 PM
Here's how I see it.

Sometimes in these discussions a person will cite a specific example (e.g., "remember that one time HERO lifted HUGE OBJECT..." or "well, HERO 1 defeated HERO 2 using EXTREME AND RARE EXAMPLE OF POWER").

Instead of using rare examples like these to justify a power grid stretch, maybe that's a better example of a big-hitting special like a 9F or 11ANY, etc.

I think of the grids as a baseline. Sure, I disagree with a few and like some of the tweaks and variants I've seen here in the homemade threads, but just because the Blob might have a moment of clairvoyance doesn't mean he still isn't a moron. Is Cyclops capable of a significant energy production? Yep, and that's why we have Remove Visor.

Rather than redo a lot of grids, I'm in favor of more creative special cards.

in short, I agree  ;)

Well said Matt.  The only aspect of the Grids that I've always wondered about was why there were no level 0 stats, and for the instances where 8 sometimes just doesn't seem to justify a base stat.  Has anyone noticed that energy ratings of 1 are extreamly rare when compared to the other stats, but Intellect ratings of 1 seem to be the more prominant?  Are there really that many idiots with the abilities to project energy manifestations running around out there?

Example: Wolverine (pick a hero card) seems to have a level 2 energy rating?  Is this to reflect his mutant ability to heal, and if so, how, honestly, does that help him in the game?  It just makes him 1 point more expensive since the grid CLEARLY doesn't allow for anything resembling his healing factor (there's a special card for that.)
Sabretooth, who has the same energy abilities as Wolverine, had a level 1 energy stat back when the game was only 3 stats, but somehow, when they decided to add in Intelligence to the mix, Sabretooth all the sudden jumped from 1 to 2.  Did he suddenly learn an new trick on manipulating energy?  These are the only true issues I see with a lot of the characters.  Deadpool has the same mutant abilities, but he's also more likely to have some kind of gadget which could trigger some kind of energy manipulation, hence his level 3 energy stat, but 'Tooth and Wolvie are pretty much known for going Tooth and Nail, so why up their energy stat about a 1?  Beast, on his I.Q. hero, also has an energy rating above 1.  WHY?  These are all characters who's specials cover their various abilities or rare cases of pushing their limits, so why is a level 1 not sufficient, especially for a pack of characters who have no steady means of creating an energy attack?

Again, this is just an example of the Base Stats being wonky, and applies to plenty of other characters in the game.

But it's mostly just me ranting.

Quote from: ncannelora on June 14, 2012, 12:19:21 PM

My brother is a Cyclops fan and he pointed to about a dozen instances where Cyclops' fighting is clearly a 5, maybe even a 6 (with references like Cyclops being a Judo master  :o), but again, that's over a period of 40 years worth of different writers and different concepts/stories.

I think that's what the 'never used' training cards are for...

Quote from: Demacus on June 16, 2012, 12:31:33 PM
Example: Wolverine (pick a hero card) seems to have a level 2 energy rating?  Is this to reflect his mutant ability to heal, and if so, how, honestly, does that help him in the game?  It just makes him 1 point more expensive since the grid CLEARLY doesn't allow for anything resembling his healing factor (there's a special card for that.)
Sabretooth, who has the same energy abilities as Wolverine, had a level 1 energy stat back when the game was only 3 stats, but somehow, when they decided to add in Intelligence to the mix, Sabretooth all the sudden jumped from 1 to 2.  Did he suddenly learn an new trick on manipulating energy?  These are the only true issues I see with a lot of the characters.  Deadpool has the same mutant abilities, but he's also more likely to have some kind of gadget which could trigger some kind of energy manipulation, hence his level 3 energy stat, but 'Tooth and Wolvie are pretty much known for going Tooth and Nail, so why up their energy stat about a 1?  Beast, on his I.Q. hero, also has an energy rating above 1.  WHY?  These are all characters who's specials cover their various abilities or rare cases of pushing their limits, so why is a level 1 not sufficient, especially for a pack of characters who have no steady means of creating an energy attack?

Again, this is just an example of the Base Stats being wonky, and applies to plenty of other characters in the game.

But it's mostly just me ranting.

I think 'the Dude' acurately listed what the various levels of the energy stat represents earlier in this thread.  Level 2 energy basically represents enhanced sensory perception or simple projectil weapon. Or to use your examples Wolverines/Sabre's tracking senses or Cap's shield.