Apocalypse

[gameplan.exe]

@thetrooper27 - yeah, I much prefer the idea of playing a Special to make these Game-lasting.

also, how about an MP for Apocalypse? make it non-OPD like Psylocke's. it's a great way to weed out a negate before playing all these cards. getting them early is still useful, and gettin 1, 2, or even 3 into play after they are FROG would make Apocalypse a VERY intriguing character. it'd still take a lot of set-up and card DISadvantage to abuse it... thoughts?

[thetrooper27]

I thought the psylocke special kinda sucked, but if you need to get a special off, it doesn't seem so bad.  Making that remainder of game with the Apoc OPD would give you reason to play more than one, would make Apoc much stronger, particularly against negate heavy decks, but wouldn't totally break the game.  Awaiting feedback.  Anxiously.    

I'm still wondering what to do about drawing the specials early as opposed to AFTER the OPD is played.  They kinda suck by themselves, or Apoc would get some playtime already.  You would have to play multiples of them to ensure an opportunity to benefit from them.  Only the MP (if that's the one everyone decides on) would be worth playing more than one of.  And you can only place one card at a time

We should pause to figure out what kind of nonOPD special to make to round out the usage of the OPD.  The MP might be a good bet, but its probably gonna hold us back a little bit until we get something in mind.  I think we can take the discussion further once we get an idea what the special will ultimately give Apoc. 

[Hotobu]

I disagree about Apocalypse' intellect. I think he's only smart because of his age, but he's not actually inventing or creating much. most of his genetic "research" has been watching humanity or hiring Mr. Sinister (or others). I always thought his 6Int was just about perfect.

also, it seems like an I.A. would be too easy to get these cards as FROG. I mean, at that point you might as well rewrite the Specials. any "weakness" you might get from a printed I.A. seems like it'd be lost from the boon of having non-OPD FROG effects. his AY, for example, should be a OPD if it's FROG...

The I.A. making it easy is exactly the point. That's what it should be. Instead of just having the knee-jerk reaction that re-writing specials is bad, think about both alternatives and what's really more useful and realistic from a gameplay standpoint.

Making a special that makes them last for the remainder of the game is a severely unreliable gimmick. First of all the player is looking at about a 1 in 3 chance of getting these specials in the optimum order to begin with. Out of order you're looking at being forced to place and hope that you'll eventually get the proposed special. If the proposed special comes at the end of that order then it completely screws things up. Remember that the CL special can't be played until another character is KO'd; if the Apocalypse player got the AY in round one, then decided to place it, and gets the CL special in round two then the CL special is no good. In addition to this we're talking about 3 specials that may or may not have an effect on the game to begin with, certainly not an immediate one, an specials that take up 3 turns over the course of a game that have to be used to Frankenstein together a flimsy gimmick. Get them together in the same hand and the player has basically lost the venture for that hand, while still having to take at least two turns (assuming they'll place one) to get the effect going, and possibly having to defend 3 times in a row. On top of all this the Apocalypse player has to run the Gambit of cards that get rid of placed cards, and the opponent conceding. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the biggest threat of them all. The negate. One negate completely destroys this strategy. The opponent gets to trade one negate for 3 cards and a strategy which is most likely a big part of whatever deck Apocalypse is in.

All things considered making this a special is completely worthless. I'd say it's a generous estimate that this strategy would work 1 in 6 times, and that says nothing of how useful it'd even be depending on how the game plays out.

Compare all of these problems to the alternative of him having it as an I.A.

-The order that the specials come in don't matter.
-The AY special never has to be placed, making room for the CL
-One negate doesn't cancel out 3 cards
-One less passive, character specific special.

Nothing about this is overpowered. It's streamlined.

As for Apocalypse only having a 6I... usually I don't get into the "who can beat whom" because it's a really quick way to rot brain cells, but let's look at some 6Is and some 7s

6s

Captain America, Black Widow, Daredevil, Mojo, and Moleman

7s

Beast, Leader, Donald Pierce, Black King, Red Skull


Do you really think he belongs in group 1 and not at least in group 2?

[gameplan.exe]

First, I know it's a bit of a gamble and it'd be difficult to get these cards into play perfectly, but I don't think it should be easy to have effects like a CL card last a whole game.

Second, I know a negate would shut this down, that's why I think an MP-Special is a great complement. Also, this would give an incredible potential, having 2 or 3 MP Specials in play for an entire game.

Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.

[thetrooper27]

Should we continue with this idea, or scrap it and find something new?  2 new specials could really put him in some decks, even at 23 points.  That's the toughest part of playing him now.  He would fit in reserve, but he eats too many points and you're left with no one to play frontline. 

How about a negate, and something else.  I was thinking how Techno Virus might be cool if it actually did something.  How about something like a non OPD level 5 anypower that at the time its successful, if opponent has a level one or two value power card hit, he's ko'd.  A five is easy to block, it's always a 5 for venture, so its not useless, but if you happen to have the virus working, or even if they just have a 1 or 2 power card hit on their record it has a special benefit.  If this seems powerful, we could limit the negate, something like Morbius' ED.  That way he doesn't have a full negate, but he could negate his own techno virus, making the ones and twos count for spectrum.   

Since it's Ultimate Evil, I also think it would be cool to make some other characters like Wolverine: Horseman of Apocalypse, and Hulk: Horseman of Apocalypse, etc.  Along with Angel, maybe we could think of a cool special or inherent ability to accomodate a deckbuild with horseman.  If nothing else, a Wolverine/Death character card would really float my boat. 

As far as the grid goes, if we change it, I think Apocalypse's Intellect could stand at least a one point boost. 

Here's a reference:         http://marvel.com/universe/Apocalypse_(En_Sabah_Nur)
Check it out and see what you guys think.  The only part I disagree with is a part in the powers section where it says his strength could rival Hulk's.  No one's strength Rival's Hulk's.  He's undisputed since WWHulk.   But it's Marvel's site, so I guess I really can't argue. 

Sinister has an 8, and he should be a little closer to him, even if Sinister might be a tad more intelligent.  Apocalypse is a couple 1000 years old... and though Apocalypse gets outsmarted by the XMEN alot, I think in terms of genetics and technology, he's probably better than a 6.  Compared to the list Hotobu provided, I would agree that he's probably a cut above those guys.  Maybe not in the battle strategy department, but in terms of sheer intelligence.  I proposed an 8 initially, but I think a 7 would do him justice if we are looking at changing his grid. 

[Hotobu]

Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.

Doesn't he have to be? He's a bad guy so he's going to eventually lose, but he's an invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.

[Nostalgic]

Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.

Doesn't he have to be? He's a bad guy so he's going to eventually lose, but he's an invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.

Not sure about increasing Apocalypse's intellect stat as its a pretty 'complicated' thing. Its not just sheer smarts, but also includes leadership and impulsiveness for example. We had a good discussion of that in the link below.

http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/custom-cards/stat-grid-definitions/msg10029/#msg10029

[thetrooper27]

I try to remain diplomatic.  I don't want to win, or make anyone look dumb, or prove how much I know about anything.  I love chatting with you guys, and I wanna see some new cards and mechanics come to the game, and having these debates is a great way to make that happen.  But we have to get somewhere.  So I'll drop this out there and you guys can piggyback on it. 

Apocalypse usually has a grand scheme, not just a battle plan.  He doesn't show up like Juggernaut and cause problems, it's usually a "take over the world" kind of gimick.  "The Twelve" was meticulous.  I don't think Cap, Daredevil, Kingpin, Mojo, or just about any other character with a 6 Int could concoct a scheme of that magnitude... maybe Magneto.  Even Sinister with an 8 would have trouble putting that one together (Sinister rules).   Apocalypse is thousands of years old and has been to various places in space and time.  He never dies.  He will conquer a timeline (eventually).  He has history with the Celestials.  He's a physics/genetics genius, at least to the level of Hank McCoy/Dark Beast (and by this comparison, Iron Man probably needs an 8 Int, and Thor needs an 8 Str).  Doctor Doom loses to FF by being outsmarted.  If losing is to be a reason to lower an intellect rating, then it would seem any villain with an 8 would need to be adjusted, so maybe we shouldn't take it there.  The good guys will ALWAYS win, and that's because they have to, at least in a fictional context that needs to continue from month to month.  They must... or there's no story to tell.  And I side with good.  The leadership quality coming into play could lend to his intellect as well.  He's had various associates agree to his plans, and not all because of mind controlling them, as in the case of the Horseman.  Apocalypse isn't the most intelligent bad guy in the galaxy.  But he's on par with many 7 Int characters, at least that I would say.  Some 7's he might even exceed in intellect. 

Now, I'm not an expert on all things Apocalypse, or any other character.  But I believe it wouldn't be a stretch to see him as a 7.  Some could drive the point home that he's an 8 Int.  That isn't my goal in this discussion, but I could see that as well and would be satisfied it that were what everyone else wanted to see.  If he's to be changed, I think a 7 is a nice compromise.

Maybe as an inherent ability, his Intellect could shoot to 8 if he's the last character on the team, or he could get a +1 bonus to Intellect Power card attacks.

   

[Nostalgic]

Perhaps keep the same stats and add an inherent that says: Apocalypse intellect is 8 for offense.

[thetrooper27]

There ya go.  Perhaps something like that.

[gameplan.exe]

Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.

... but he's an invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.

False.

See, exibit A:



Look, I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm just saying I think a lot of people give him too much credit.

Seriously, though, in the end, all of these ratings have the same problem: Standard. There is no standard, because you have dozens of writers over a period of decades, changing how powerful characters are, relative to others and even relative to themselves/history.

[thetrooper27]

Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!).  How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG.  Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials.  He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special.  I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck.  Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy.  He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special. 

Maybe we don't need to invent anything new.  What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?"  Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ.  Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ.  Maybe he could use a card like an EK.  There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.     

[gameplan.exe]

Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!).  How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG.  Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials.  He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special.  I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck.  Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy.  He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special. 

Maybe we don't need to invent anything new.  What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?"  Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ.  Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ.  Maybe he could use a card like an EK.  There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.   

it's the end of the original AoA.

I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.

I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?

[Nostalgic]

Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!).  How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG.  Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials.  He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special.  I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck.  Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy.  He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special. 

Maybe we don't need to invent anything new.  What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?"  Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ.  Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ.  Maybe he could use a card like an EK.  There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.   

it's the end of the original AoA.

I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.

I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?

I think a EJ like Doc Oc's yet playable from reserve due to an I.A. like Hawkeye would be appropriate.

[gameplan.exe]

Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!).  How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG.  Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials.  He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special.  I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck.  Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy.  He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special. 

Maybe we don't need to invent anything new.  What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?"  Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ.  Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ.  Maybe he could use a card like an EK.  There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.   

it's the end of the original AoA.

I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.

I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?

I think a EJ like Doc Oc's yet playable from reserve due to an I.A. like Hawkeye would be appropriate.

I'd be reluctant to give a max-23 any kind of positive I.A.. why not just print it to the Special? It's not like that'd really change it's use from a Battlesite...