Conquering the conqueror - C3
Play with 1 or more activators.
with one of these pictures
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vlame/2110456-jlaavengers.jpg)
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vlame/2098113-starro.jpg)
Characters fighting against Starro the conqueror.
What will the card do?
allow you to play 2-4 activators in one turn against DOW. it will be an OPD and can be placed to a home base, so you can prepare for DOW.
i like it
Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 13, 2012, 03:44:49 AM
allow you to play 2-4 activators in one turn against DOW. it will be an OPD and can be placed to a home base, so you can prepare for DOW.
I definitely like the idea, but how abou 2-3 attacks? Granted it'd be a little rare to actually have 4 activators that can attack in one hand, but even then it'd be nice to make the player have to wait two turns. Any Heroes are already underpowered and unflexible. At least make the player wait two turns.
maybe we can play test it to see if it is cheap. there do need to be some new any hero cards tho. thats is true they are underpowered.
I don't mean to be critical of the card, because I'm not the best card designer... but it seems that you're now playing 5 cards to stop DOW, and though you get him off the board quicker, its at a great cost. Maybe there's another way... something like an aspect that removes one card in play that affects remainder of battle/ remainder of game? I dunno... just a thought... maybe a secondary effect, like adding a few points to venture total? I'm sure it will be OPD so maybe we could brainstorm an idea like that... DOW is way unfair. In addition to making the aspect card, a more Any Heroes would be nice... just to have some variety. We should start an any heroes thread for considerable options.
the simplest solution is an any-homebase KL (remove remainder of battle/game), that can be placed
call it ultimate nullifier (the preferred anti-galactus weapon ;)), since the artifact is criminally underused
I feel ya... Galactus eats worlds for breakfast, but Reed points that thing at him and he's like "Easy there man... I don't want NO trouble... " Criminally underplayed pretty much covers it. Does anyone even know what that thing DOES (not the card)?
Quote from: breadmaster on December 14, 2012, 05:53:13 PM
the simplest solution is an any-homebase KL (remove remainder of battle/game), that can be placed
call it ultimate nullifier (the preferred anti-galactus weapon ;)), since the artifact is criminally underused
But then DoW is FAR less of a threat. Granted this card could be sitting at the bottom of the deck, but when thinking about a card design you have to look at all possible circumstances. If the person with this card gets it first DoW is spayed and neutered. Of course this card
could be negated, but even that's a coinflip. As I said before Any-Heroes are already predictable and inflexable. They've only got three cards going for them (DoW, Leech, and WHW). DoW is disproportionately good, but I still don't get what seems to be a very common need to want to nerf it somehow.
A first round DoW is devastating, but not an auto loss. Your opponent could try to venture up, but they still don't know what you've got in your hand. You could have a great hand with no activators, you could draw a couple, win the venture, and weaken DoW with a couple of activator cards. At any given time Power Leech is capable of being just as bad if not worse than DoW. It's easier to avoid, but not by much.
I've got another suggestion for the card:
Any Battlesite [OPD] - counts as 2 activator card attacks against DoW. This card may not be negated.
Now DoW is still strong, but this card makes it so you're trading 3 for 1, as opposed to 4 for 1. Now that I think about it I like this better than the OP's suggestion as well because the likely hood of a person having 4 activators in a hand is pretty low. I hate the idea of 1 shotting a good card that someone has to put themselves at a disadvantage to use in the first place.
it may take 5 cards to get ride of dow but not 5 turns- thats how people really get hurt by it. using turns to play aspect cards against it.
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 14, 2012, 05:58:21 PM
I feel ya... Galactus eats worlds for breakfast, but Reed points that thing at him and he's like "Easy there man... I don't want NO trouble... " Criminally underplayed pretty much covers it. Does anyone even know what that thing DOES (not the card)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Nullifier
Basically if the person thinks about something it happens.
If I could aim that thing, I'd aim it at OverPower and imagine that it was all easier to understand. :P
Then you'd just wipe it out of existence.
I guess I should be more clear that if you chose to make something fail to exist then it will. It can remove that thing from existence, but it can also alter the timeline to account for that thing having EVER have existed.
...still though I never thought OP was that hard to understand, just that some of the meta rules are stupid.
It's always the technical stuff and card interaction that raises the confusing questions. OverPower itself isn't hard to understand... it's just numbers and colors and bonuses. Even most specials are easy enough, but you get into a few sticky situations when so many different cards are working together, and like you said, it's the meta rules that are all confusing. They seemed to use the meta rules to fix whatever problem was at hand at the time, and hoped they woudn't have to change them again. I like BBH's house rules. With them, the meta rules don't even seem to be necessary, a few cards get more playability (including Basic Universe), and it's still the same game when it's all said and done.
Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 15, 2012, 03:23:58 AM
it may take 5 cards to get ride of dow but not 5 turns- thats how people really get hurt by it. using turns to play aspect cards against it.
It's true that losing turns is the biggest problem with that card.
Also, Power Leech is incalculably easier to defend, because there is literally no way to defend against DoW, only react to it once the opponent has it in play. Also, Power Leech has the limited effect of losing 4 cards, but no turns are lost.
I have always said that I think the real purpose and intent of DoW was to make an opponent lose 4 Activators, and the next most important thing was that it cannot be negated. This is why I especially liked BBH's suggestion to allow multiple Activator attacks in one turn.
Having said all of that, this card is a pain, but it
is only one card. The proof is in the pudding, in that, the majority of the time a good battlesite deck still beats a good Any Hero deck. Still, I would love to see this card toned down just a little, with the addition of more Any Hero cards (especially that ZY that ended up going to Spawn... SMH).
I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.
First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.
Those are good ideas, fixing the al and the zy. Making the al like the morlocks run from slaughter.
Maybe a card like heroes for hire - white tiger or black knight. Maybe a target may not attack frob too.
Any other ideas, I had one of my own a 0m must be defended by a special (or maybe 8ap if successful counts as 0m.)
i thought up another anti dow card
any-mission event: brand new day
discard all cards that effect 'remainder of game'
good one
Great one.
As far as card design goes, making one card to specifically address one other card isn't a great idea. I used to play the Star Trek CCG, which 99% of the time, was a great CCG.
BUT it had more than its fair share of broken and overly popular cards. So they came out, every set, with "magic bullet" cards. Cards which effectively read "Fuck up Card X". Discard it, or download another card that destroys it, or make the other player lose a bunch of points for playing it-- but in all other instances it was completely useless.
And then some of the magic bullet cards contained secondary effects. In order to further punish the original cards, those secondary effects became more and more powerful. It was literally the game designers going "I don't like that original card, so nyah nyah!".
Of course, now THOSE magic bullet cards became too powerful. So they would come out with a whole second class of magic bullet cards to knock down the first one.
And THEN came a whole class of "Referee" cards whose entire purpose was to take down or punish swaths of powerful and Magic Bullet cards all at once.
So the game ended up being a horrible mess of "which anti-cards will you play"? Decks became nothing but counters to counters to powerful cards which were counters to other powerful cards. And you HAD to play with them, because otherwise some other card would be played that would screw you. Of course, given that parts of the deck had hard limits as to how many cards you can have-- this meant you have very little room to put in cards you actually want to use.
Which brings us back to your anti-DoW idea. The idea itself is great. Every time a new set comes out, it should shake up the meta game, force rethinks of current strategies. DoW did that. It shifted the balance of power away from Battlesite only decks. It made Any Hero a bit more powerful, and made Battlesites rethink their strategy, since they wouldn't be able to 100% guarantee their Battlesite would always be there.
So the goal is to shake up Any Heroes a bit, by making sure they can't 100% reliably shut down a Battlesite. Okay, great, start with that idea.
If you find yourself veering towards a card that reads "Fuck Devourer of Worlds", take a step back.
First thing to think about is this: how will this card be used if a DoW isn't in play? How will it be used if the opponent isn't even running Any Heroes? This is one of the biggest flaws of DoW itself (though one of its biggest balances).
Next, ask yourself how its going to distinguish itself from L'il Iceman (opponent must discard all Specials that effect remainder of battle or remainder of game)? Because making an Any Homebase version of that would work. I don't think you SHOULD do that, since it is a powerful card balanced by being limited to only a few characters.
Next, speaking of balance-- how is it going to be balanced? Will it carry a penalty (like Unfettered Might or other 11+ attacks)? Will it require a discard like the "Draw 4" cards? Will it have only a moderate effect? Will it be OPD? Will it have variable power based on how much is "paid" (like Morlock's Leech). What's going to keep it from having the text "I Win"?
Next, will it have two different modes-- one where its more powerful if DoW is in play? There are mode-specific cards in OP already-- they get bigger if they hit a Battlesite, or if a certain mission is in play. This might be a way to provide balance. Instead of costing something, it is a conventional card UNLESS its being restricted. Just remember the previous point. If the card reads "Fuck DoW", take a step back.
Okay, given all that, here's a couple shots:
1) Balanced by costing resources. Fishing for cards, and for wildcards at that, needs to be very expensive.
"Move up to 4 missions from Completed to Reserve, or Reserve to Defeated. For each Mission moved, search Deck for one Activator, and use it immediately" [OPD]
2) Balanced by having a "anti-DoW" mode. This could be used in any anti-EB deck, or even an anti-Battlesite deck.
"Search your draw pile for 2 cards OR 4 Activators, and place them as Hits on non-Character cards" [OPD]
3) How about something really stupid crazy that is balanced by hurting everyone?
"Discard all cards in play"
4) Or something that instead of killing DoW, is more of a barrier breaker? For remainder of game or battle, you decide!
"Play on [Homebase's] teammate. Character may ignore all cards in play when attacking or defending"
5) Or instead of smacking down DoW, address the core issue: wasting turns and cards to take it down:
"For remainder of battle, whenever [Homebase's] team takes a successful action that doesn't provide venture, they may make an additional action OR draw 1 card. OPD"
6) Or a more powerful, attack-restricted version:
"For remainder of battle, whenever [Homebase's] team lands a hit that doesn't provide Venture, search Draw Deck for a card of the same type and put in Hand. May not be duplicate. OPD"
7) Or if DoW is really a round-winner, make that the resources that has to paid.
"Opponent must concede, unless they put a card of your choice from placed or in play into Defeated Heroes pile."
So there you go-- some ideas that address DoW's core issues: It's a 4-1 card trade, it wastes turns, it leaves you vulnerable, it can span multiple rounds, and costs Venture. In each case, they'll take down an DoW, be useful if no DoW is in play. They aren't gamechangers unto themselves-- so it won't re-break the game in turn.
Quote from: Hotobu on December 15, 2012, 05:18:54 AM
I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.
First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.
"ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED" :o
Quote from: KObossy on January 13, 2013, 01:40:37 AM
Quote from: Hotobu on December 15, 2012, 05:18:54 AM
I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.
First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.
"ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED" :o
Are you attempting to make a point? ... Kinda hard to tell when you don't take the time to actually give reasons.
Halcyon, Dow basically says fuck battlesites. Only #3 of those 7 can't be abused by any hero decks.
Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 13, 2013, 03:20:16 AM
Halcyon, Dow basically says fuck battlesites.
That's not the point he was making, and he makes a lot of sense. DoW targets battlesites as a whole; not a specific card. An anti-DoW card would be something that targets ONE card.
I rarely draw more than 3 activators in one hand. It's highly unlikely, but it could happen. We don't need to make a card that will use another card in hand, costing us now 5 cards to allow us to discard all our activators at once and continue playing the game. I think an errata could just be issued to DOW that says opponent can use as many activators as possible on DOW. It's still going to win you the battle you play it in (likely anyway) and really help out the next one. When i think about building a deck for Buffalo, the biggest reason I don't want to play a battlesite is DOW. It's too good, not only because you don't get venture and you waste four turns slinging activators at it, but because your whole strategy is wrenched by it. You can't just ignore it. You pretty much can't do ANYTHING until you get rid of it or you will lose. This means whatever your deck was doing before it was played it is no longer doing! You could already smash a battlesite and essentially make 12 cards, give or take, useless in your opponents deck. And the fact that it couldn't be negated? You would think they didn't want anyone to ever play a battlesite! Some think it's a fair card. I just don't see it. Even Power Leech, Siberian Strength, Inventive Genius, Multiply and Conquer, Tapping the Speed Force and any other card advantage specials do not hurt that bad. You get one battle out of Leech, or any of these others. DOW takes 2, sometimes even 3 battles. What were they thinking?
Making a card that gets rid of it is a must. I agree that the KL specials are awesome and we don't want to limit the playability of the characters that have them. But the aspect idea is the best one yet. Of the ones he offered, I think halcyon1234's option 3 is the best one.
Any Homebase - All non numerical specials in play are discarded. OPD.
I, however, don't like the idea of getting rid of remainder of game effects like grid boosters, or specials that allow characters to not be cumulative ko'd etc. So I propose another option:
Any Homebase - Each player chooses one special card in play. Those specials are discarded. OPD.
It being OPD means it's going to be hard to get. You have to draw it. If DOW is played before you draw it, it's going to rock you. Often times, this will be the case. Here's another proposal:
Any Homebase - Negate target special that can't be negated.
How many specials can't be negated? This card is useless if you aren't playing against Demigod of the Dark or Kherubim or... DOW. Notice I didn't make it a OPD. If I play 3 of them just to stop DOW, then I'm going to end up having dead cards in my hand, and DOW still did it's job. If I only play one in my deck, its up to my deck to give it to me to place before DOW is played. I like this card because it generates an effect that stops DOW, doesn't hurt you too much if your opponent never plays DOW, and in rare circumstances might be useful. Is this a bad idea?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 13, 2013, 03:53:33 AM I think an errata could just be issued to DOW that says opponent can use as many activators as possible on DOW.
This is the only thing you said that I agree with.
The reason I don't agree with the other suggestions is that they potentially trade 1 for 1 with DoW, and
that isn't fair. I think anyone would agree that the
one card that makes Any-Heroes worth playing is DoW which has an implied value of 4-1. Even if Battlesites couldn't play OPDs they'd still be better, so to potentially trade 1 for 1 with the 1 card that makes Any-Heroes worth playing (which has the implied value of 4-1) really guts them. Being able to play multiple activators at once as an errata is a good compromise.
"Any Homebase - Each player chooses one special card in play. Those specials are discarded. OPD."
The person playing this special may not have a special in play, and no matter what it is, it'll never be as good as DoW.
You're right, big brother. It trades 1 for 1, but only part of the time (randomly based on the draw). Only if I get it BEFORE you get DOW does it trade 1-1. Power Leech is 4-1, and is a strong card/case for AnyHeroes. DOW is more than 4-1. It's 4-1, plus a little more than a quarter of your deck being completely null until you rid yourself of it 4 wasted turns later. DOW combined with Power Leech is 8-2... no battlesite give you this kind of advantage. I'm with whoever in a different thread (BBH?) said they didn't think anyone bothered to playtest this game very much, if even at all.
Now, I'm not saying my aspect suggestions are the solution, I'm just laying out something to build discussion on, as I built off someone else's suggestion. We are so far from exhaustively testing a fair solution to DOW, or any other custom card. A.D.D. moment, I would like to note that not every post, in this thread or any other, is definitive. We will come to a conclusion on many ideas only after lots of points and counterpoints. Thank you for keeping us on our toes, Hotobu. In the end, these endeavors will all be much more fruitful with your degree of scrutiny.
Back to topic, even if this were the solution, I would still have to get my aspect before you play your DOW. Otherwise, it would still have to be dealt with. I couldn't sit and wait to rip my aspect off the top. I would have to start discarding activators or start conceding venture to you, then when I draw my aspect, it's likely to be useless. If I pitch two activators, then next hand draw the aspect, you still got 3-1. That's pretty good. Many times, you will get 2-1. Still good. I'm with you though... errata is the best solution. You still get 4-1 over 2 battles.
I also like Power Leech's targeting rule for a possible defensive action. Maybe DOW could have something like that.
Lets take a vote? How often does ANYONE playing a battlesite win against DOW if it's played on or before round 3?
a)Never
b)Rarely
c)Sometimes
d)More often than not
e)Galactus eats Apple Jacks
Well I don't think you can compare it to Power Leech quite like that. DoW is guaranteed to get at least 4 cards. You can still guess wrong with the icon on Power Leech. The more I think about it the more I like that being an errata and calling it a day. It avoids the notion of making one single card to combat another single card (which I agree is a bit dumb), it solves the problem of multiple turns being wasted to get rid of DoW, and the other problem of a player possibly having to concede with activators in hand thus getting rid of more activators, yet it still let's DoW be strong.
Maybe there there should be more battlesite locks, how about an any hero, opponent may not play activators for remainder of battle. Or a level 12ap against battle sites only, counts for venture.
Any heroes are barely competitive, no adaptation. You can usually choose a battlesite for your team that will add something your four characters don't have.
Any heroes are kinda stale. 2 static attacks, Dow, avoid, switch, en, negate, confusion, leech and bq. Outback can do 6 of these 10 and usually people do 10-13 activators, so that makes 4-7 more cards, one of them being a usually deastating opd.
They definitely need a 5e, may play one add. Special and 6i if successful target must discard 2 placed cards and an high multi maybe a 12. How about a cd for good measure.
If any heroes were just more competitive then there could just be an anti any hero aspect, exactly like Dow.
Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 13, 2013, 09:28:09 AM
Maybe there there should be more battlesite locks, how about an any hero, opponent may not play activators for remainder of battle. Or a level 12ap against battle sites only, counts for venture.
Any heroes are barely competitive, no adaptation. You can usually choose a battlesite for your team that will add something your four characters don't have.
Any heroes are kinda stale. 2 static attacks, Dow, avoid, switch, en, negate, confusion, leech and bq. Outback can do 6 of these 10 and usually people do 10-13 activators, so that makes 4-7 more cards, one of them being a usually deastating opd.
They definitely need a 5e, may play one add. Special and 6i if successful target must discard 2 placed cards and an high multi maybe a 12. How about a cd for good measure.
If any heroes were just more competitive then there could just be an anti any hero aspect, exactly like Dow.
I was with you until you said what's in bold...
yeah
perhaps a basic http://overpower.ca/wiki/HY
First, re: Any Hero being over or under powered. No. They're not. BBH and I have had many multi-deck battles. We build X decks, split evenly amongst Any Hero and Battlesite. (Also accounting for AH homebase vs. AH Marvel Universe, and same for battlesite). We then battle every deck against every other deck, multiple times.
We've done THAT multiple times. BBH and I are evenly matched in terms of skill.
We kept track of the results, ostensibly so the loser buys a beer or something. The results have always been that AH and Battlesites are evenly matched, ending up 50/50 plus or minus less than a single deviation.
(That being said, I do think Alien S. should be played as written. Permanent Record only, but non-OPD.)
DoW is powerful, but balanced. I think it's worst crime is that its not FUN to play against. I can play with strategy around a draw 4, or a leech, or a Best Laid Plans/Down but not Out... or just about anything else you can think of. But going up against a Devourer with a hand full of activators and no defense isn't fun.
Killing it quickly is easy enough by allowing Activators-as-attacks. A Doombots, or 2+2, or a 3+each teammate makes short work of it. Then you tromp the Anyhero team with your disgusting "Any Hero" battlesite cards.
But it still isn't FUN. I don't agree with giving DoW an eratta. Those should only be saved for honest misprints, or cards that cannot be interpreted, or that are literally broken. non-OPD draw 3, unclear wording on Mist Body, etc. Giving a card an eratta because you don't like it isn't a valid reason. That's where there's 100+ Meta Rules that don't make any sense.
The one game-balanced that's built into Overpower that's used in every other game is "limiting" a card. In other words, making it OPD. Vertigo is perfectly balanced as an OPD. Unfortunately, DoW already is OPD.
I do love the wording on the Aspect a few posts up. Each player discards one non-numerical Special in play. OPD. I love it. Universal, balanced, and you can use it to your advantage by not having any non-numerical Special in play. Let's work with that.
First, you want to make sure it's not used by Any Heros because it's ostensibly a non-OPD special? Okay, let's give it a cost.
"Discard 1 Activator OR 1 cards from your Battlesite. Each player picks and discards 1 non-numeric Special in play."
A bit unbalanced, since there's a cost. Let's give it a bit more power:
"Discard 1 Activator OR 1 card from your Battlesite. Each player picks and discard 1 non-numeric Special, Tactic or Aspect in play."
What's the theme? A temporary truce? Mutual sacrifice? Renewing/recycling resources? A gathering of heroes? Preventing a future disaster? You can use that theme to give the card a bit more flavor.
Renewal:
"... If a player picks a card they own, they draw 1 card (keep duplicates)"
Gathering resources:
"... discard any number of Activators OR cards from your battlesite. For each..."
Future threats at great cost:
"... in play (or in Draw Deck if 2 Activators/Specials were discarded. Reshuffle)."
Diplomacy/Enemy of my Enemy
"... if both players pick the same card, target player Draws 3"
Hy in intellect and a multi 12 in energy or reverse?
If DOW was that overpowered everybody would be going with any-hero decks. That is not the case. So there is no reason to create a card to counter DOW. If I'm not mistaken the west coast tourney was won by a battlesite deck (against a bunch of AH decks). Finding a way to get a KL card or two in your deck is the sacrifice you have to make if you want to counter. You cant have everything you want in a deck or we would ALL go with the same deck. That is the problem with other ccg's. My brother LOVES playing Any-hero decks with his battlesite team, but the sacrifice is his battlesite is slightly weaker than most battlesite decks he plays against. Its rock,paper,scissors. Sometimes you have to just outplay your opponent. Once it becomes rock,rock,paper welcome to the world of Pokemon. Any-hero decks are so far behind battlesites that any card created to counter DOW will be the complete end of Any-heroes. :o
thats why i dropped it and said lets just give ah some new cards.
Quote from: KObossy on January 16, 2013, 07:23:06 PM
If DOW was that overpowered everybody would be going with any-hero decks. That is not the case. So there is no reason to create a card to counter DOW. If I'm not mistaken the west coast tourney was won by a battlesite deck (against a bunch of AH decks). Finding a way to get a KL card or two in your deck is the sacrifice you have to make if you want to counter. You cant have everything you want in a deck or we would ALL go with the same deck. That is the problem with other ccg's. My brother LOVES playing Any-hero decks with his battlesite team, but the sacrifice is his battlesite is slightly weaker than most battlesite decks he plays against. Its rock,paper,scissors. Sometimes you have to just outplay your opponent. Once it becomes rock,rock,paper welcome to the world of Pokemon. Any-hero decks are so far behind battlesites that any card created to counter DOW will be the complete end of Any-heroes. :o
except when using http://overpower.ca/cards/homebases/36.png
Alright. DoW is fair and balanced.
But I would like to discard as many activators as I can with one turn.
how about losing 1 venture point per activator discarded
I think discarding activators with no penalty is fair. You're already winning this battle. Does DoW ever do anything except put you in a battle winning position?
yes
dow puts you in a GAME winning situation. if you get it out early, you should win virtually every time (~95%ish)
If. So, bread, if you play with any heroes would you always win?
Quote from: breadmaster on January 20, 2013, 03:35:19 PM
yes
dow puts you in a GAME winning situation. if you get it out early, you should win virtually every time (~95%ish)
This was my take on it, but everyone else seems to agree that DoW is an absolutely fair card. Not even the multiple activator errata is necessary. I'll concede to that because I respect everyone who has much more OP experience than I do, but my heart isn't with it. Just saying.
I always wondered why they didn't allow both AnyHeroes and battlesites in a deck. Same advantage for anyone playing. Anyone have a clue?
imagine a deck with like 3 any play negates. team overpower as a home base. nightmare fuel.
yeah, for the most part, i think people believe it's balanced
nic doesn't like that it's impossible to defend, and i despise it altogether
If you absolutely rely on the Battlesite to make up for shortcomings of your deck (namely defense) then you're just as susceptible to a Battlesite KO strategy.
Quote from: Jack on January 20, 2013, 11:55:11 PM
If you absolutely rely on the Battlesite to make up for shortcomings of your deck (namely defense) then you're just as susceptible to a Battlesite KO strategy.
^^^^^^Couldnt have said it any better myself. Defensive battlesites are always asking for it. Personally I liked the game more without battlesites. But if I use my battlesite deck that is built to destroy AH decks I'll win more times than with my AH deck that is built to destroy battlesite decks. When tournaments were a regular event (in the 90s), at least in SoCal, I do not remember the AH decks winning all the time because they kept getting DOW early in every round of the tourney. Actually it was battlesite decks owning towards the end because they were always more consistent & dependable. :o
Quote from: KObossy on January 21, 2013, 03:06:26 AM
When tournaments were a regular event (in the 90s), at least in SoCal, I do not remember the AH decks winning all the time because they kept getting DOW early in every round of the tourney. Actually it was battlesite decks owning towards the end because they were always more consistent & dependable. :o
this has been my understanding, too. so, I don't think DoW was "enough" to balance the versatility and consistency of Battlesites.
in our group, we tend to make AHDecks mostly, because they're easier in our Partner Play system. for myself, I like them both, just depends on the deck's overall strategy.
Quote from: Jack on January 20, 2013, 11:55:11 PM
If you absolutely rely on the Battlesite to make up for shortcomings of your deck (namely defense) then you're just as susceptible to a Battlesite KO strategy.
The thing is that you get a whole new world of teams to play simply because of a battlesite. Without them, you're limited in what you can even play. All Fighting, or energy, or you have to play a team that has a million defensive cards, or negates, and that's all you really get. With a battlesite, you can actually play a team of characters that you WANT to play, not just the teams that have a chance at winning.
Having a way to beat the battlesite is fine... such as a KO strategy. I believe that's fine, and the best balance. Maybe battlesite hits should count to venture total. That might have been a good rule to put in place. DoW being non negateable was probably because they knew the battlesite would probably have one. Maybe DoW should read "may not be negated from a battlesite." Thatmight have helped out a bit. I dunno... I just think battlesites are a great way to allow for good deck ideas with characters that don't stand a chance on their own. Maybe they should've printed more defensive cards for any character, and then battlesites would have lost some of their appeal. Maybe an LO anyhero, or a numerical attack avoid. If symbiote healed a hit from current battle, that would give any heroes a huge boost, I think. But I dunno... I just think DoW is a bit much. I'll play it, I'll play against it. But I don't like it. It takes all the fun out of a game when it's played... which I think someone mentioned was it's biggest crime.
I kinda like getting slammed by Clobberin' Time or Don't Lose Your Head. It's a superhero battle!!! You want those big finishers! Here's what I'm trying to say I think: It's not that you can't have fun while losing... it's that you can't have fun when you don't get to play cards. DoW prevents you from doing anything. And that's no fun. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 21, 2013, 06:14:22 PM
It takes all the fun out of a game when it's played... which I think someone mentioned was it's biggest crime.
You got to remember all the fun taken from thee Takey is equaled in fun given to thee Giver. So the fun factor still evens out! Its all that action/reaction mumbo jumbo. :o
Well, unless one is just a sore loser, losing can be fun. We can SHARE in the fun when you Clobber me with Thing. When you summon Galactus, that's not shared fun... but it's relative to the ones playing and that's just how I see it. DoW seems unfair, but alas, it's a part of OverPower. And more often than not, I have fun playing OverPower. Discussing these topics on this message board is as much fun as playing to me. So lets debate.:)
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 21, 2013, 06:14:22 PM
I kinda like getting slammed by Clobberin' Time or Don't Lose Your Head. It's a superhero battle!!! You want those big finishers! Here's what I'm trying to say I think: It's not that you can't have fun while losing... it's that you can't have fun when you don't get to play cards. DoW prevents you from doing anything. And that's no fun. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
I agree with this. That's why, when I printed up my Proxy (and we adopted this for our play group), I gave it wording that allows multiple Activator attacks at once. Then, it's acting more like a BY Special that targets Activators, but it's exactly 4, not all from a single hand.
I really have 3 issues with DoW.
1) with the card's
effect, (and I think we've all experienced this) that you can draw a hand with 6 activators and 2 other cards, and you're struggling to keep afloat while burning through - not just 4 cards - but 4
turns trying to get rid of DoW. There's just nothing fun about that scenario, having to fight off Galactus while your opponent is also pummeling you.
2) with the card's canon, that it
completely disregards who Galactus is and what he means to the Marvel Universe. I mean really, when Galactus shows up, he's a threat to ALL earthlings. There aren't too many Overpower matchups that wouldn't immediately come to a halt in the comics if Galactus suddenly showed up, and it'd take a lot more than 4 "activated" heroes to get him to go away.
3) the card's immunity to defense / safety of play, which is a broken mechanic in any fighting game.
having said all of that, I think I've kinda come to terms with the card. Even with it's threat, and it's pain-in-the-ass status, I still use Battlesites because of some of the ultra-fun mechanics, and expanded rosters they allow. I can make a team that makes double use of the KO Event while providing a way to "double" resurrect (!), or creates a "Tank" out of Rogue to absorb 40+ points of damage (!). I can build the entire X-Men Blue team (Cyke, Wolvie, Jubes, Psylocke + Danger Room: Beast, Gambit, Rogue), or I can make an Old/New X-Factor team (Havok, Polaris, MultipleMan, Quicksilver + TheShip).
Any Heroes still offer 3 great cards that are hard to replicate in a single Battlesite (BQ, BY, EN), so I really think of them as an altogether separate option.
It's all good, really. That's why we all still play, right? 8)
For sure.:) You know what? Bring on Galactus. He can defeat me, but he can't steal my sunshine. ;)
::) = Bill Cosby