besides making marvel's flagship character more playable, i think he should have the 8 anyways
he should be able to take at least half of the fights with the other 8Fs, with the exceptions of wonder woman and galactus (possibly zealot...i know nothing about her)
E:1
F:8
S:6
I:6
thoughts?
that's the tricky thing about a power grid. Spider-Man can stand up to a lot of those other 8Fighters, but I think a lot of that has to do with his strength and intelligence. Without his spider-strength, I'm not sure he could go toe-to-toe with many of those 8F, not for long, anyway. I'm sure he could play keep-away, but I don't think he could actually defeat them.
I had the same complication when I was thinking about Gambit's grid. Gambit is, no doubt, a formidable opponent in a one-on-one fight. He's gone toe-to-toe with Sabretooth, Wolverine, and the entirety Assassin's Guild as a whole (read: The Hand). But, his fighting style relies heavily on his energy abilities. If it weren't for them, he's really only a master of one kind of martial art (Savate). His mutant speed/agility help, but aside from that, his stand-alone fighting skill should probably be a 6. The same sort of arguement is made of his energy rating. It's quite effective, the way he uses it, but it's not on the level of Cyclops or Storm.
Having said all that, it's still certainly arguable that Spider-Man's Fighting should be an 8. And, I'm 100% for making Spider-Man better, for all of the flagship-type reasons you stated. So, by all means, make a variant!
interesting points. however, if spidey loses his strength, so should his opponent. then he can just web them up ftw. (i don't think anyone human has broken his webbing...maybe kingpin?)
the keep away point is interesting. if he dodges a whole fight, according to most MMA judges the opponent would be awarded the win
as far as intelligence goes, i've always thought it should be rolled into fighting, and eliminated, but that's another topic
Quote from: breadmaster on February 07, 2012, 05:50:05 PM
interesting points. however, if spidey loses his strength, so should his opponent. then he can just web them up ftw. (i don't think anyone human has broken his webbing...maybe kingpin?)
the keep away point is interesting. if he dodges a whole fight, according to most MMA judges the opponent would be awarded the win
as far as intelligence goes, i've always thought it should be rolled into fighting, and eliminated, but that's another topic
the strength shouldn't be eliminated altogether, but equalized. several of the 8F have ways to destroy the webbing with various weapons, I think. Also, for the intellect, that's another thing to bring up because the original Spidey only had webbing
because of his intellect. In general, though, I agree that Intellect is a tricky thing to separate from a fighting ability, or even the ability to effectively use strength or energy. Really, it's impossible to quatify IQ in any definitive way :-\ In Overpower, INT ratings seem to go to the more inventive/medical types... that topic is pretty deep in and of itself...
For just his Fighting abilities, he's had no real training, has he? I mean, he's basically a good fighter because of experience and his "natural" traits, right?
i believe you are correct.
i think they've done stories where someone has trained him, and it's ended up doing more harm than good. if he thinks, he hesitates. when he just goes with it and trusts his spidey sense, he's unstoppable
Quote from: breadmaster on February 07, 2012, 09:04:34 PM
i believe you are correct.
i think they've done stories where someone has trained him, and it's ended up doing more harm than good. if he thinks, he hesitates. when he just goes with it and trusts his spidey sense, he's unstoppable
In that regard some of his power would definitely fall into the energy category. His spider-sense seems to be an ethereal power that allows for enhanced defensive as well as offensive tactics. So, really, he is a combination of his strength, energy, fighting, and intellect. The problem in Overpower is that the best characters tend to have 8's but Spider-man's abilities are all over the place. The best way to account for this without giving him a ridiculous grid would be with specials. I think they tried to something about this with his science whiz special. His AE is good too.
I tend to think that Spider-Man's grid is actually pretty solid. Maybe he could have used a 6 intellect... but I'd leave his fighting at 7.
The point was made that his fighting prowess comes from his powers, not actual training. If Spidey had the level of training of Captain America or Wolverine, then yes, his spider-agility combined with the training would warrant an 8.
What Spider Man lacks, is 1 or two really killer specials that make him indispensable. And no, not yet another character with teammate avoid, but something that truly stands out as a must have card. His Marvel's card was a step in that direction, be he needs another.
Comparing to other 8 characters isn't necessarily accurate because Overpower is notorious for not getting it right.
IE: Bullseye - 7 fighting maybe, not 8.
Spawn - 8 energy? Hardly. You really put him in league with Dark Phoenix or Dr. Strange?
Superman - only a 7 strength? Really?
Batman - I believe his intellect should be 8 with a 7 fighting, others believe the other way around. Either way, he should have an 8.
Anyway, you get the point.
I don't mind using Spider-Man on teams, and often look for ways to fit him in. But I'm wacky that way. His specials, while lacking, aren't a total write off.
My two cents.
-BBH
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 08, 2012, 01:59:50 PM
I tend to think that Spider-Man's grid is actually pretty solid. Maybe he could have used a 6 intellect... but I'd leave his fighting at 7.
The point was made that his fighting prowess comes from his powers, not actual training. If Spidey had the level of training of Captain America or Wolverine, then yes, his spider-agility combined with the training would warrant an 8.
What Spider Man lacks, is 1 or two really killer specials that make him indispensable. And no, not yet another character with teammate avoid, but something that truly stands out as a must have card. His Marvel's card was a step in that direction, be he needs another.
Comparing to other 8 characters isn't necessarily accurate because Overpower is notorious for not getting it right.
IE: Bullseye - 7 fighting maybe, not 8.
Spawn - 8 energy? Hardly. You really put him in league with Dark Phoenix or Dr. Strange?
Superman - only a 7 strength? Really?
Batman - I believe his intellect should be 8 with a 7 fighting, others believe the other way around. Either way, he should have an 8.
Anyway, you get the point.
I don't mind using Spider-Man on teams, and often look for ways to fit him in. But I'm wacky that way. His specials, while lacking, aren't a total write off.
My two cents.
-BBH
too true - about the Specials. I feel the same way about Gambit. I wish his grid had a 7, just because that'd make him
that much more fun to use. But, when I play with him, he has such a wide array of attack specials, plus his dual-grid for an off-suit Teamwork card, that he's always bringing the heat. I feel like that's his role in the comics anyway.
Regarding Spider-Man and his Specials, I fell like he has pretty solid stuff. His MARVELS card can certainly be put to tremendous use. Also, in our circle, we made all AJ-coded Specials be Draw To Replace, mostly to make Batman, Nightwing, and Spider-Man a little more useful ;)
I didn't mean to suggest I thought Spider-man was done justice in Overpower. He definitely needs more specials as BBH says. Really, if you think about it, in the comics he is awesome enough to take on multiple super-powered people at once. His AV does help represent this because incapacitating people is one way he deals with groups. He could have maybe used an IA that made him feel more like his comic-book counter part. Ultimately I agree that he shouldn't have an 8. I like his variant and clone cards too. A fun deck might be Spider-man, Scarlet Spider, Doppelganger, and maybe Venom.
on the batman point
i know it's taboo in overpower, but give the guy his dang double 8 (same with superman)
batman is right up there with luthor in intellect, and only the best can beat him in a fight
as for superman...can't he cool a supernova with his ice breath, and reignite a planet's core with his heat vision...i'd say that warrants a higher tier than iceman and human torch
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 08, 2012, 01:59:50 PM
What Spider Man lacks, is 1 or two really killer specials that make him indispensable. And no, not yet another character with teammate avoid, but something that truly stands out as a must have card.
Yeah, giving him a teammate avoid would be sooo stupid! A card like that definitelly won't fit a character like him!
(http://i.imgur.com/lmNCd.jpg)
Quote from: Bios on February 08, 2012, 09:49:23 PM
Yeah, giving him a teammate avoid would be sooo stupid! A card like that definitelly won't fit a character like him!
(http://i.imgur.com/lmNCd.jpg)
Very nice card.
For the record, I don't think Spidey having a 1-9 avoid is a bad thing - it is definitely appropriate to him... but there are just too many characters with that type of card now. It's old hat. Back in the IQ set is when he should have gotten it, now it's overdone.
He needs something useful and unique. Before the Marvels I had an idea for a Spider-Man special that I think would have rocked:
"With Great Power..." (I had it named before his Marvels card was known)
"Acts as a level 7 strength card. May be used to attack, or may be used to defend a teammate."
Unique and appropriate.
Personally, I think every character should have one card that is absolutely unique to them alone. Many already do, but if everyone else without a unique had one, that could create a really awesome variety in deckbuilding.
Ahh... what might have been, eh?
-BBH
Thought I'd chime in with the Spidey talk. I also am in agreement that Spider-Man, being the flagship character that he is and one of the most popular superheroes around, should have been made way more playable. His lack of good specials has kept me and my friends from using him which really is a shame. As for his stats, ncannelora and BBH pretty much summed up my feelings for why Spidey is good with the 7 fighting. He can hold his own against 8 stat fighters mostly because of his fast reflexes and acrobatics, relying on his strength as well as his distracting chatter to gain the upper hand at times. I do agree with Bread that his Intellect should be bumped up to a 6 since he is a science whiz.
(http://overpower.ca/cards/characters/276.png)
just a visual of who were talking bout
Quote from: BigBadHarve on February 08, 2012, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: Bios on February 08, 2012, 09:49:23 PM
Yeah, giving him a teammate avoid would be sooo stupid! A card like that definitelly won't fit a character like him!
Very nice card.
For the record, I don't think Spidey having a 1-9 avoid is a bad thing - it is definitely appropriate to him... but there are just too many characters with that type of card now. It's old hat. Back in the IQ set is when he should have gotten it, now it's overdone.
He needs something useful and unique. Before the Marvels I had an idea for a Spider-Man special that I think would have rocked:
"With Great Power..." (I had it named before his Marvels card was known)
"Acts as a level 7 strength card. May be used to attack, or may be used to defend a teammate."
Unique and appropriate.
Personally, I think every character should have one card that is absolutely unique to them alone. Many already do, but if everyone else without a unique had one, that could create a really awesome variety in deckbuilding.
Ahh... what might have been, eh?
-BBH
I see your point and kinda agree with you. But that's in a "fill the gaps" context, where you keep adding more cards trying to compensate past mistakes.
Not discussing wich way is better, but my approach was more like a soft reboot, where I try to keep all that is good, or at least what was done right, while ignoring and replacing what was wrong.
In that context, Spider-Man got his own teammate avoid, while characters like Xaos lost theirs. My personal choice was allowing "teammate avoids" only to characters with a minimum 19 points sum grid, and most are over 21 points. Also, the characters with "teammate avoids" have opposite power grids. The idea was improving deck building options while not giving any advantages to teams with 2 "1-9 avoid" characters.
And at last there are many cards to disrupt "1-9 avoid" effectiveness, like those bellow, thus encouraging variety.
(http://i.imgur.com/cjM6d.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/VS3C5.jpg)
Quote from: steve2275 on February 09, 2012, 05:39:23 AM
(http://overpower.ca/cards/characters/276.png)
just a visual of who were talking bout
Why must you show that one?! It mocks me since I still don't have the Spider-Man IQ Card! :'(
I think Spidey is definately a borderline 8. I remember arguing for that once myself when my circle was redoing OP and for the same flagships reasons. I think certain writers have portrayed him when using his spider sense as 8F, Tom DeFalco in the 80s being the most obvious when he had Spidey take down Firelord, the Synister Syndicate and his big battle with Hobgoblin during his run. However, I think overall under most writers it is hard to argue Spidey as a pure 8F - - look at the way he interacts (and defers to) Cap or Wolverine when teamed with them on fighting tactics as an obvious example. I think a better compromise for Spidey would be a "spider instincts" that acts as an 8F cc opd.
BTW to BBH, you don't see Bullseye as a clear 8F? In my view he's probably the second strongest of all the 8F's after Cap.
Quote from: The Dude on February 12, 2012, 07:09:50 PM
I think Spidey is definately a borderline 8. I remember arguing for that once myself when my circle was redoing OP and for the same flagships reasons. I think certain writers have portrayed him when using his spider sense as 8F, Tom DeFalco in the 80s being the most obvious when he had Spidey take down Firelord, the Synister Syndicate and his big battle with Hobgoblin during his run. However, I think overall under most writers it is hard to argue Spidey as a pure 8F - - look at the way he interacts (and defers to) Cap or Wolverine when teamed with them on fighting tactics as an obvious example. I think a better compromise for Spidey would be a "spider instincts" that acts as an 8F cc opd.
BTW to BBH, you don't see Bullseye as a clear 8F? In my view he's probably the second strongest of all the 8F's after Cap.
I think that fighting is pretty hard to quantify in general and the idea of comparing Spider-man to other fighters when in a team with them is an excellent way to try and come up with a rating. I also agree that Bullseye does strike me as deserving of an 8 in Overpower. His ability to compete with super-powered beings purely on his skill alone is pretty much what the fighting rating is all about. As far as an 8 fighting cc for Spider-man, something powerful like that would help the character a lot.
I think that another reason Spider-man should have his skills fleshed out in specials rather than in stats is because when you look at someone like the Hulk or really any 8s character, the strength rating influences every action they take. When they throw a hay-maker, it has a huge amount of strength behind it. With Spider-man, I see his true power coming out in great moments when he just puts everything he has into one attack or strategy and that is how I see differentiating specials from power card attacks. Power cards are what they do consistently and specials are what they do at a cost to themselves or by putting together a great attack or strategy to fit the moment or the fight.
good points, palatinus
in my own 3 grid system, energy and strength are self explanatory, and relatively equal (a 7e can compete with 7s)
fighting would be anything that's not E/S: flight, speed, agility, teleporting, intellect... a character only gets an 8f if they can compete with an 8 strength. these would be rarer; characters like flash
and i couldn't agree more about your thoughts on specials. that's how a character like luthor or batman should shine.