Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 15, 2012, 03:23:58 AM
it may take 5 cards to get ride of dow but not 5 turns- thats how people really get hurt by it. using turns to play aspect cards against it.

It's true that losing turns is the biggest problem with that card.

Also, Power Leech is incalculably easier to defend, because there is literally no way to defend against DoW, only react to it once the opponent has it in play. Also, Power Leech has the limited effect of losing 4 cards, but no turns are lost.

I have always said that I think the real purpose and intent of DoW was to make an opponent lose 4 Activators, and the next most important thing was that it cannot be negated. This is why I especially liked BBH's suggestion to allow multiple Activator attacks in one turn.

Having said all of that, this card is a pain, but it is only one card. The proof is in the pudding, in that, the majority of the time a good battlesite deck still beats a good Any Hero deck. Still, I would love to see this card toned down just a little, with the addition of more Any Hero cards (especially that ZY that ended up going to Spawn... SMH).

I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.

First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.

Those are good ideas, fixing the al and the zy. Making the al like the morlocks run from slaughter.

Maybe a card like heroes for hire - white tiger or black knight. Maybe a target may not attack frob too.

Any other ideas, I had one of my own a 0m must be defended by a special (or maybe 8ap if successful counts as 0m.)

i thought up another anti dow card

any-mission event: brand new day

discard all cards that effect 'remainder of game'

good one

Great one.

As far as card design goes, making one card to specifically address one other card isn't a great idea.  I used to play the Star Trek CCG, which 99% of the time, was a great CCG.

BUT it had more than its fair share of broken and overly popular cards. So they came out, every set, with "magic bullet" cards. Cards which effectively read "Fuck up Card X".  Discard it, or download another card that destroys it, or make the other player lose a bunch of points for playing it-- but in all other instances it was completely useless.

And then some of the magic bullet cards contained secondary effects. In order to further punish the original cards, those secondary effects became more and more powerful. It was literally the game designers going "I don't like that original card, so nyah nyah!".

Of course, now THOSE magic bullet cards became too powerful. So they would come out with a whole second class of magic bullet cards to knock down the first one.

And THEN came a whole class of "Referee" cards whose entire purpose was to take down or punish swaths of powerful and Magic Bullet cards all at once.

So the game ended up being a horrible mess of "which anti-cards will you play"?  Decks became nothing but counters to counters to powerful cards which were counters to other powerful cards. And you HAD to play with them, because otherwise some other card would be played that would screw you. Of course, given that parts of the deck had hard limits as to how many cards you can have-- this meant you have very little room to put in cards you actually want to use.

Which brings us back to your anti-DoW idea. The idea itself is great.  Every time a new set comes out, it should shake up the meta game, force rethinks of current strategies.  DoW did that.  It shifted the balance of power away from Battlesite only decks. It made Any Hero a bit more powerful, and made Battlesites rethink their strategy, since they wouldn't be able to 100% guarantee their Battlesite would always be there.

So the goal is to shake up Any Heroes a bit, by making sure they can't 100% reliably shut down a Battlesite.  Okay, great, start with that idea.

If you find yourself veering towards a card that reads "Fuck Devourer of Worlds", take a step back.

First thing to think about is this: how will this card be used if a DoW isn't in play? How will it be used if the opponent isn't even running Any Heroes?  This is one of the biggest flaws of DoW itself (though one of its biggest balances).

Next, ask yourself how its going to distinguish itself from L'il Iceman (opponent must discard all Specials that effect remainder of battle or remainder of game)?  Because making an Any Homebase version of that would work.  I don't think you SHOULD do that, since it is a powerful card balanced by being limited to only a few characters.

Next, speaking of balance-- how is it going to be balanced? Will it carry a penalty (like Unfettered Might or other 11+ attacks)?  Will it require a discard like the "Draw 4" cards?  Will it have only a moderate effect?  Will it be OPD?  Will it have variable power based on how much is "paid" (like Morlock's Leech).  What's going to keep it from having the text "I Win"?

Next, will it have two different modes-- one where its more powerful if DoW is in play?  There are mode-specific cards in OP already-- they get bigger if they hit a Battlesite, or if a certain mission is in play.  This might be a way to provide balance.  Instead of costing something, it is a conventional card UNLESS its being restricted. Just remember the previous point. If the card reads "Fuck DoW", take a step back.

Okay, given all that, here's a couple shots:
1) Balanced by costing resources. Fishing for cards, and for wildcards at that, needs to be very expensive.
"Move up to 4 missions from Completed to Reserve, or Reserve to Defeated. For each Mission moved, search Deck for one Activator, and use it immediately" [OPD]

2) Balanced by having a "anti-DoW" mode. This could be used in any anti-EB deck, or even an anti-Battlesite deck.
"Search your draw pile for 2 cards OR 4 Activators, and place them as Hits on non-Character cards" [OPD]

3) How about something really stupid crazy that is balanced by hurting everyone?
"Discard all cards in play"

4) Or something that instead of killing DoW, is more of a barrier breaker? For remainder of game or battle, you decide!
"Play on [Homebase's] teammate. Character may ignore all cards in play when attacking or defending"

5) Or instead of smacking down DoW, address the core issue: wasting turns and cards to take it down:
"For remainder of battle, whenever [Homebase's] team takes a successful action that doesn't provide venture, they may make an additional action OR draw 1 card. OPD"

6) Or a more powerful, attack-restricted version:
"For remainder of battle, whenever [Homebase's] team lands a hit that doesn't provide Venture, search Draw Deck for a card of the same type and put in Hand. May not be duplicate. OPD"

7) Or if DoW is really a round-winner, make that the resources that has to paid.
"Opponent must concede, unless they put a card of your choice from placed or in play into Defeated Heroes pile."

So there you go-- some ideas that address DoW's core issues: It's a 4-1 card trade, it wastes turns, it leaves you vulnerable, it can span multiple rounds, and costs Venture.  In each case, they'll take down an DoW, be useful if no DoW is in play.  They aren't gamechangers unto themselves-- so it won't re-break the game in turn.

Quote from: Hotobu on December 15, 2012, 05:18:54 AM
I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.

First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.

"ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED"

Quote from: KObossy on January 13, 2013, 01:40:37 AM

Quote from: Hotobu on December 15, 2012, 05:18:54 AM
I think Any-Heroes could potentially be balanced with 3 more cards and one change.

First of all they've only got two attacks. They should get three more attacks in the types that they don't have. Also Alien Symbiote should stay non-OPD, but also be given the ability to remove hits from the current battle. These would make them very attractive. Battlesites would still be good, but there would actually be a reason to use Any-Heroes. With these changes in place it'd be cool to be able to use 4 activators at once against DoW because Any-Heroes wouldn't be so underpowered.

"ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED"

Are you attempting to make a point? ... Kinda hard to tell when you don't take the time to actually give reasons.

Halcyon, Dow basically says fuck battlesites. Only #3 of those 7 can't be abused by any hero decks.

Quote from: BasiliskFang on January 13, 2013, 03:20:16 AM
Halcyon, Dow basically says fuck battlesites.

That's not the point he was making, and he makes a lot of sense. DoW targets battlesites as a whole; not a specific card. An anti-DoW card would be something that targets ONE card.

I rarely draw more than 3 activators in one hand.  It's highly unlikely, but it could happen.  We don't need to make a card that will use another card in hand, costing us now 5 cards to allow us to discard all our activators at once and continue playing the game.  I think an errata could just be issued to DOW that says opponent can use as many activators as possible on DOW.  It's still going to win you the battle you play it in (likely anyway) and really help out the next one.  When i think about building a deck for Buffalo, the biggest reason I don't want to play a battlesite is DOW.  It's too good, not only because you don't get venture and you waste four turns slinging activators at it, but because your whole strategy is wrenched by it.  You can't just ignore it.  You pretty much can't do ANYTHING until you get rid of it or you will lose.  This means whatever your deck was doing before it was played it is no longer doing!  You could already smash a battlesite and essentially make 12 cards, give or take, useless in your opponents deck.  And the fact that it couldn't be negated?  You would think they didn't want anyone to ever play a battlesite!  Some think it's a fair card.  I just don't see it.  Even Power Leech, Siberian Strength, Inventive Genius, Multiply and Conquer, Tapping the Speed Force and any other card advantage specials do not hurt that bad.  You get one battle out of Leech, or any of these others.  DOW takes 2, sometimes even 3 battles.  What were they thinking?

Making a card that gets rid of it is a must.  I agree that the KL specials are awesome and we don't want to limit the playability of the characters that have them.  But the aspect idea is the best one yet.  Of the ones he offered, I think halcyon1234's option 3 is the best one.

Any Homebase - All non numerical specials in play are discarded.  OPD.

I, however, don't like the idea of getting rid of remainder of game effects like grid boosters, or specials that allow characters to not be cumulative ko'd etc.  So I propose another option:

Any Homebase - Each player chooses one special card in play.  Those specials are discarded.  OPD.

It being OPD means it's going to be hard to get.  You have to draw it.  If DOW is played before you draw it, it's going to rock you.  Often times, this will be the case.  Here's another proposal:

Any Homebase - Negate target special that can't be negated.

How many specials can't be negated?  This card is useless if you aren't playing against Demigod of the Dark or Kherubim or... DOW.  Notice I didn't make it a OPD.  If I play 3 of them just to stop DOW, then I'm going to end up having dead cards in my hand, and DOW still did it's job.  If I only play one in my deck, its up to my deck to give it to me to place before DOW is played.  I like this card because it generates an effect that stops DOW, doesn't hurt you too much if your opponent never plays DOW, and in rare circumstances might be useful.  Is this a bad idea? 

Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 13, 2013, 03:53:33 AM I think an errata could just be issued to DOW that says opponent can use as many activators as possible on DOW.

This is the only thing you said that I agree with.

The reason I don't agree with the other suggestions is that they potentially trade 1 for 1 with DoW, and that isn't fair. I think anyone would agree that the one card that makes Any-Heroes worth playing is DoW which has an implied value of 4-1. Even if Battlesites couldn't play OPDs they'd still be better, so to potentially trade 1 for 1 with the 1 card that makes Any-Heroes worth playing (which has the implied value of 4-1) really guts them. Being able to play multiple activators at once as an errata is a good compromise.

"Any Homebase - Each player chooses one special card in play.  Those specials are discarded.  OPD."

The person playing this special may not have a special in play, and no matter what it is, it'll never be as good as DoW.

You're right, big brother.  It trades 1 for 1, but only part of the time (randomly based on the draw).  Only if I get it BEFORE you get DOW does it trade 1-1.  Power Leech is 4-1, and is a strong card/case for AnyHeroes.  DOW is more than 4-1.  It's 4-1, plus a little more than a quarter of your deck being completely null until you rid yourself of it 4 wasted turns later.  DOW combined with Power Leech is 8-2... no battlesite give you this kind of advantage.  I'm with whoever in a different thread (BBH?) said they didn't think anyone bothered to playtest this game very much, if even at all. 

Now, I'm not saying my aspect suggestions are the solution, I'm just laying out something to build discussion on, as I built off someone else's suggestion.  We are so far from exhaustively testing a fair solution to DOW, or any other custom card.  A.D.D. moment, I would like to note that not every post, in this thread or any other, is definitive.  We will come to a conclusion on many ideas only after lots of points and counterpoints.  Thank you for keeping us on our toes, Hotobu.  In the end, these endeavors will all be much more fruitful with your degree of scrutiny.   

Back to topic, even if this were the solution, I would still have to get my aspect before you play your DOW.  Otherwise, it would still have to be dealt with.  I couldn't sit and wait to rip my aspect off the top.  I would have to start discarding activators or start conceding venture to you, then when I draw my aspect, it's likely to be useless.  If I pitch two activators, then next hand draw the aspect, you still got 3-1.  That's pretty good.  Many times, you will get 2-1.  Still good.  I'm with you though... errata is the best solution.  You still get 4-1 over 2 battles. 

I also like Power Leech's targeting rule for a possible defensive action.  Maybe DOW could have something like that. 

Lets take a vote?  How often does ANYONE playing a battlesite win against DOW if it's played on or before round 3?
a)Never
b)Rarely
c)Sometimes
d)More often than not
e)Galactus eats Apple Jacks

Well I don't think you can compare it to Power Leech quite like that. DoW is guaranteed to get at least 4 cards. You can still guess wrong with the icon on Power Leech. The more I think about it the more I like that being an errata and calling it a day. It avoids the notion of making one single card to combat another single card (which I agree is a bit dumb), it solves the problem of multiple turns being wasted to get rid of DoW, and the other problem of a player possibly having to concede with activators in hand thus getting rid of more activators, yet it still let's DoW be strong.