Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 13, 2013, 11:00:06 PM
"Personally, I like top 8, one LIMITED card, don't shuffle opponent, shuffle Venom.  Has a nice balance, pays off in Power Pack."

How do these sound?  We could go one or the other. 

Item 1:  Look at the top 8 cards of opponent's draw pile and choose one special card.  Opponent discards that card.  Reshuffle Venom special into draw pile. OPD.

Item 2:  Opponent chooses and reveals 4 special cards from their hand, of which you choose and discard one.  Place Venom special on top of your draw pile.  OPD.

If we were to use either of these, would it make Venom a contender?

I like 1, but I don't like that it targets specials. I think its too powerful, and doesn't feel like its on theme with the "don't get into a prolonged battle with Venom". Being able to peg specials (which include OPD, any heroes, etc) repeatedly is a bit overpower. "Power or Universe" would be good. Or it needs a limiter.

"Look at top X. Discard 1 card to Dead Pile. If it is a Power Card, reshuffle this card. Opponent doesn't reshuffle".

I agree with the comment above that it should be between 5-7 cards, and not the full 8. I think 5 is the perfect number. It lets you know what exactly half of the opponent's next hand is, but not the entire hand.

That's reasonable, but I'd add a few more things.

Look at top 5 cards in opponent's draw pile. Discard 1 card to Dead Pile. If it is a Power Card, reshuffle this card, if not discard this card into dead pile. Opponent does not reshuffle. Do not reshuffle this card into Power Pack. Draw 1 card if power card is selected and discard duplicates.

It's powerful, balanced and flexible.

I don't like the idea of the card being shuffled into the powerpack. If Venom's been around this long the card's probably already done some damage, and if it's still allowed to be used then you're getting into auto-win territory. Having to reshuffle it is a good way to limit it as well; this was part of my problem with it initially. Being guaranteed to get it hand after hand is nuts. Limiting it to 5 cards also reduces the amount of cards that get to be seen, and can possibly lead to the card being discarded due to it having to get rid of a non powercard.

Quote from: Hotobu on January 16, 2013, 11:31:47 PM
That's reasonable, but I'd add a few more things.

Look at top 5 cards in opponent's draw pile. Discard 1 card to Dead Pile. If it is a Power Card, reshuffle this card, if not discard this card into dead pile. Opponent does not reshuffle. Do not reshuffle this card into Power Pack. Draw 1 card if power card is selected and discard duplicates.

Issues:
1) "if not discard this card into dead pile" can be dropped. That's what happens to played Specials anyways. Keep the text to a minimum

2) The game doesn't technically have a concept of a "power pack deck". It's just a term we use to describe the state of the game after the first reshuffle.  In fact, technically, Power Pack is the discard pile for Power Cards.  You can't even say "If you've reshuffled your deck once" or anything like that. Again, the game has no memory of when a deck's been shuffled, or how often, or under what circumstances.  Does Phoenix Risen from the Ashes count?  Does it count if you've reshuffled Power Pack, and then opponent plays it?
(FYI: Like Jack, I'm a computer programmer. So I come at the wording on cards from the standpoint of "If we had programmed OPO to be fully automated, could this card be played as written without creating a bunch of new programming and state management?)

3) I don't think the "draw 1 if you discarded a power card" is needed.  You're already getting rewarded for picking the less-powerful Power Card: you get to recycle the Special.  Maybe draw if you don't pick a Power Card. Short term gain (kill a powerful card, regain some resources) or long-term gain (remove a less powerful card that can harm you much later, and be able to repeat)

i was looking back, and i liked a bunch of suggestions that i pieced together into a couple specials that i think work

doc ock-superior strategy: ock may immediately play one of opponents placed cards-OPD (very powerful...superior? )

mojo-reruns: acts as a level 7 energy attack, discard to power pack-OPD

kingpin-protecting my interests: kingpin or teammate may avoid one attack of 6 or less.  may be played from reserve (this one is 100% harv's.  i was initially against it, but the name is just too damn good!)

green goblin/leader-patience is a virtue: play in front of ___.  next battle, or later, acts as a level 12 intellect attack-OPD (this works for either of them...not sure which yet.  i'm leaning towards leader, since i think goblin could use either an opponent discard type card, or a revive card similar to action leader)

also, i was looking back at scarlet spider.  my suggestion was a JW, but i don't think it works.  after using him a bunch, he's got the nice BQ, but nothing really worth retrieving with it.  perhaps a juicy opd attack...

Some thoughts...

I like the Doc Ock special.

Love the Kingpin special. If there is anyone who should be able to defend (or even attack) from reserve, it's the Kingpin. Lex Luthor is another character who should have at least one or two 'reserve' specials, but he's not in this set.

For Mojo, I would modify the special to allow it to return to the deck if the attack is blocked. I think putting the special into the power pack even if it hits the target character is too much.

Can you explain the Leader special some more? When it's played in front of a character, does that mean the hit can be defended in the current round but will count towards the next round venture if not successfully defended? That it can't be used until the next round? I might be overlooking something, but the 'play in front of ___' is throwing me off some.

What about just simplifying the Venom special to just allow for the first five cards to be viewed and one of those cards discarded to the dead pile? Or maybe allow for two cards to be discarded with a one time use?

On the other hand, I do like the idea of Venom having a special that can return to the top of the deck, just like Spider-Man does with the OP special. What about taking the concept of the OP special, making it OPD and allowing Venom to discard one card from either the opponents deck or his own deck? It might be too strong if it can be used to target the opponents deck and the card can be reused over and over, but given the option to use to Venom's deck, it could be a nice way to filter unusable cards later in the game.

I have an idea for a  Mysterio special that works a bit like Vertigo; Mysterio can shift any attack for the duration of the battle and either the hits don't count toward venture or the hits don't count on permanent record? It would be OPD of course and it might be too strong, but I think it would be intriguing to either have a round where you could intentionally lose venture by absorbing several attacks while saving your cards to use to setup spectrum KO's. Or from another angle, you could sacrifice a character to win venture.

yeah, that is confusing.  the blank space was since i hadn't decided which character would use it

so if it was leader, you would 'play' the card the battle you get it, but the card just sits in front of leader.  since it's a 'patience' card, you have to wait a battle (or more) to use it.  so next battle, i could just attack any of the opponents characters with it.  the other 12 attacks have funky penalties to use, so this switches it up a bit

Quote from: halcyon1234 on January 17, 2013, 01:04:17 PM

Quote from: Hotobu on January 16, 2013, 11:31:47 PM
That's reasonable, but I'd add a few more things.

Look at top 5 cards in opponent's draw pile. Discard 1 card to Dead Pile. If it is a Power Card, reshuffle this card, if not discard this card into dead pile. Opponent does not reshuffle. Do not reshuffle this card into Power Pack. Draw 1 card if power card is selected and discard duplicates.

Issues:
1) "if not discard this card into dead pile" can be dropped. That's what happens to played Specials anyways. Keep the text to a minimum

2) The game doesn't technically have a concept of a "power pack deck". It's just a term we use to describe the state of the game after the first reshuffle.  In fact, technically, Power Pack is the discard pile for Power Cards.  You can't even say "If you've reshuffled your deck once" or anything like that. Again, the game has no memory of when a deck's been shuffled, or how often, or under what circumstances.  Does Phoenix Risen from the Ashes count?  Does it count if you've reshuffled Power Pack, and then opponent plays it?
(FYI: Like Jack, I'm a computer programmer. So I come at the wording on cards from the standpoint of "If we had programmed OPO to be fully automated, could this card be played as written without creating a bunch of new programming and state management?)

3) I don't think the "draw 1 if you discarded a power card" is needed.  You're already getting rewarded for picking the less-powerful Power Card: you get to recycle the Special.  Maybe draw if you don't pick a Power Card. Short term gain (kill a powerful card, regain some resources) or long-term gain (remove a less powerful card that can harm you much later, and be able to repeat)

I agree that saying "if not discard into dead pile is redundant" and I thought of that even as I typed it, but I've noticed that at times if things aren't explicitly spelled out sometimes they're misinterpreted.

As far as "no concept of powerpack" that's false. The Power Pack is clearly defined in the rules of the game, and it's also referenced in Beast's "Brilliant Deduction" special. There's precedent for citing the Power Pack on a special.

As far as the "Draw 1 card if power card is discarded" not being needed I strongly disagree. First of all this card is sacrificing 1 card in the hand for a future benefit. A benefit which may never pay off. That's mitigated by getting a card back. Seeing as you only get to look at 5 cards you may only end up with a level 5 power card max. I'm not so sure that + getting to see half a hand is worth an OPD. Hell you could even end up helping out the opponent by getting rid of something that'd be duped. Giving the player the choice of sacrificing a reshuffled card + drawing a card in exchange for just getting rid of a special makes it a bigger decision.


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First of all how many specials is everyone getting? 1, 2? as many as "necessary?"

Re: Doc Oc - That's... questionable. It's one thing to get rid of cards, but another thing to turn it against the person. AI specials are non OPD, so it makes sense that the next step up would be something OPD, but... something about that doesn't sit right with me. I can't say it's broken, but it just doesn't feel right.

Re: Mojo - I actually like it as is. It makes him a pseudo level 7 character. That's not broken at all. It's essentially a Power Card that only Mojo can use. I really don't see how that's too strong.

Re: Leader/GG ... well they do need a good special I really don't like 12s. I know that there are only 2 as of now, and they're hard to use/ have drawbacks, but... 11 would be better.

Re: Mysterio - Either way is beyond broken. If the hits don't count toward venture you're saying you can't lose the round. I'll just play Mysterio and Scarlet Witch together, chose a site with a DS special, put in at leat 5 activators for that character, get one of those activators or the special the first round, or conceede until I do, venture as many as possible, play the special, KO Scarlet Witch and win the round. I can also just play Invisible Woman or someone with a similar IA and keep everyone alive.

Hits not going on the permanent record isn't much better either. In a normal draw you can arrange at least 8-9 hits before having to KO a character. There would be absolutely no need for you to defend. You may lose the venture, but that's not a big deal considering the damage you can do.

Funny thing about Mysterio is that I thought that he should have an LN special anyway. Just give him Vertigo, it fits and it's good enough on its own.

Quote
As far as "no concept of powerpack" that's false. The Power Pack is clearly defined in the rules of the game, and it's also referenced in Beast's "Brilliant Deduction" special. There's precedent for citing the Power Pack on a special.

"Power Pack" is the discard pile that power cards go into. If they get reshuffled, they form a new Draw Deck. There's not such thing as a Power Pack Draw Deck.  So saying "Don't reshuffle into Power Pack" is wrong, since you're referring to a "Power Pack Draw Deck," which doesn't exist.  If I read your wording right, you don't want to keep this Special alive when you get to a Power Pack battle-- ie: its recyclable until then, and then its a straight one-use.  But the game engine doesn't support that idea.

Quote
As far as the "Draw 1 card if power card is discarded" not being needed I strongly disagree. First of all this card is sacrificing 1 card in the hand for a future benefit. A benefit which may never pay off. That's mitigated by getting a card back. Seeing as you only get to look at 5 cards you may only end up with a level 5 power card max. I'm not so sure that + getting to see half a hand is worth an OPD. Hell you could even end up helping out the opponent by getting rid of something that'd be duped. Giving the player the choice of sacrificing a reshuffled card + drawing a card in exchange for just getting rid of a special makes it a bigger decision.

Which comes back to the question of what is the theme of this card? Is Venom setting up a strategy for a prolonged battle? Is he beating down a near-future opponent? What, in essence, should the card be doing/called?

Getting rid of a Special potentially every battle is a huge, huge, huge bonus.  Not negating, not discarding a placed-- but just straight up gone and never drawn.  Without a big drawback, like being down a card this battle, it's hard to balance it.

What if you balanced out the card inequity?

"Play in current battle. At the start of next battle, after Events but before Discards, look at opponent's hand. Chose and discard 1 card to Defeated Heroes. Shuffle [this card] into Draw Pile."

You're down 1 card this round. Next round, your opponent is down 1 card AND his hand is exposed. AND you get this benefit repeatedly.

You can power it down a bit with "Opponent picks and shows you 6 cards from hand. Pick and discard one to Defeated Heroes."  Your opponent can still hold back his two best cards, but he's losing something valuable. In Power Pack, you'll be able to whittle away mid-level power cards.   Or power it up slightly by saying "... after Discards but before Placing...".  If you want to be extra mean "May not be negated."

1 card per villain, plus 1 for the 4 heroes that didn't get one in marvels

mysterio's special is pretty much set in stone, in my mind.  harv came up with the 1-4 omni-ad + discard 1, and it's going to take a hell of a suggestion to bump it

How about:  Look at the top 5 cards of opponent's draw pile and choose one.  Opponent discards that card.  If a power card was chosen, venom special is discarded to the top of draw pile unless all cards revealed were power cards.

Now there's room to play more than one in your deck (in case you pick a special in an early hand), it's limited on how you can abuse it, and your pick list is much more slim.  You only know half of opponents hand for the next turn as well.

Maybe 5 cards is too much/not enough?

couple more thoughts

hand: acts as a level 9f/i attack OPD

landslide: acts as level 5 intellect power card, may be used to attack or defend

how's this one sound for the four freedoms aspect

acts as a level 4e/f/s/i attack (not too powerful for a powerful team...keeps the '4' theme with 4 icons, and level 4)

The Hand card should have Shadowland Daredevil on it... not sure what to name it though.  But I like it.  They're an awesome offensive team.  Keeps with the theme. 

And the FF aspect needs a secondary ability, such as "if successful" or "may make one additional attack."  Maybe something totally new!!!  I really would like to see new abilities and mechanics.  The discussion on the venom special card is pretty intense but might lead to a great unique card.

I was thinking about a new location card that would allow for any tournament legal team, using normal deckbuilding rules, with no stat higher than 6.  It would have a cool inherent ability that would make max 6 characters playable.  I'm not really onto a good ability though.  I was thinking it would give team a +2 to defensive actions.  That's just a consideration to build on.  It could be tweaked like any other ability.  We could make a few other locations as well, say around 5.  New battlesite ideas, new homebases... new decks.

Quote from: breadmaster on January 20, 2013, 03:43:27 PM
couple more thoughts

hand: acts as a level 9f/i attack OPD

landslide: acts as level 5 intellect power card, may be used to attack or defend

how's this one sound for the four freedoms aspect

acts as a level 4e/f/s/i attack (not too powerful for a powerful team...keeps the '4' theme with 4 icons, and level 4)

that Aspect looks good, breadmaster.

@thetrooper27, idk if it should have anything else... it's not like FFP needs help, right?

Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 20, 2013, 08:05:30 PM
I was thinking about a new location card that would allow for any tournament legal team, using normal deckbuilding rules, with no stat higher than 6.  It would have a cool inherent ability that would make max 6 characters playable.  I'm not really onto a good ability though.  I was thinking it would give team a +2 to defensive actions.  That's just a consideration to build on.  It could be tweaked like any other ability.  We could make a few other locations as well, say around 5.  New battlesite ideas, new homebases... new decks.

Inherent: Team may ignore the Sum Deck rule.

Ignoring the Sum Deck rule opens up a huge problem with Beyonder decks. The beauty of Beyonder decks is finding characters that fit the 48 points envelope to make a viable deck. I would never consider that as an Inherent due to the game breaking nature of such.