Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Quote from: ncannelora on June 08, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
also, breadmaster, you mentioned two things that caught my eye...

Martian Manhunter's telepathy is on par with Prof's? because he's the strongest telepath in the Marvel U... is that how MM is in dc?

also, I do not think you realize how powerful Storm really is... she pretty easily could have been an 8... at least according to this Claremont I'm reading right now...

Martian Manhunter is a very powerful telepath.  Realistically Martian Manhunter outclasses most other heroes in terms of ability and strength.  It's really his peace-loving temperament that restricts his abilities.  He can shape-shift, fly, is super-strong, can fire lasers, has telepathy, is very intelligent to the point of being able to coordinate dozens or more individuals telepathically fielding disparate missions all over the world.

Storm is super-powerful to be sure.  But you can make a direct comparison to Thor because during the Marvel vs. DC comics Storm actually wound up with Thor's hammer at one point and was granted its power.  She immediately gained far more power than she already had at that point.  One can surmise that Thor is definitely stronger than her.  At what level that leaves her I still don't know though.  That could still mean she is an 8 but with Thor being a stronger 8.

Quote from: Palatinus on June 08, 2013, 11:33:28 PM

Quote from: ncannelora on June 08, 2013, 10:37:30 PM
also, breadmaster, you mentioned two things that caught my eye...

Martian Manhunter's telepathy is on par with Prof's? because he's the strongest telepath in the Marvel U... is that how MM is in dc?

also, I do not think you realize how powerful Storm really is... she pretty easily could have been an 8... at least according to this Claremont I'm reading right now...

Storm is super-powerful to be sure.  But you can make a direct comparison to Thor because during the Marvel vs. DC comics Storm actually wound up with Thor's hammer at one point and was granted its power.  She immediately gained far more power than she already had at that point.  One can surmise that Thor is definitely stronger than her.  At what level that leaves her I still don't know though.  That could still mean she is an 8 but with Thor being a stronger 8.

well first, that could just be a discrepancy in writing. Second, couldn't we also just figure that wielding mjolnir would amplify her powers regardless of the base-level? like the hammer is multiplying the floor, rather than pulling someone up to a ceiling. So, rather than pulling Storm up to where Thor was, it's simply multiplying her previous levels (and possibly, certainly, beyond Thor...).

IDK, I thought I had a pretty good handle on Thor - maybe not tho. I do know that reading through this current story arc (especially since this current TPB, Uncanny Essentials #4) has given me a much different idea of Storm's potential. Like you described Martian Manhunter - she clearly holds back because of her fear of hurting people.

-

Oh! I forgot to mention what happened earlier today! I'm just a nick off of playing a completely full game today with my 8yo daughter. We played with everything but Event cards today! - anyway, I was explaining how there were old grids (3-stat)... when she saw Thor's 3-stat grid!



OH! how I wish I could've captured that face!  seriously, she couldn't believe it! she was like, "That just doesn't make ANY sense!"

#prouddad #raisethemright 

I think the cap of 8 for any given stat is what makes the grids seem unbalanced.  6-8 isn't enough room to work with for accuracy.  6-9 or 6-10 would allow for more accuracy in stats... but then you wouldn't have characters like Jubilee in the game.  Some guys just couldn't hang. 

Here's what I think is most important to remember... the goal of OverPower was to make a game where you could be creative and make your dream team and have a blowout!  Marvel vs. Capcom features characters that couldn't possibly stand up to other characters in the game... but you don't worry about that.  Felicia from Darkstalkers or Arthur from Ghost n' Goblins couldn't stand up to the Hulk or Thor.  EVER.  Chris Redfield can't take Dormammu.  But you don't care about all that.  The game isn't about showcasing powers accurately, but it is about cool superhero slugfests.  OverPower is quite the same, I believe.  You couldn't have Superman in the game if you wanted to accurately display his ablities unless you limited the game to only characters on his level.  Even Xbabies with their inherent ability and carrying a pocket full of kryptonie doesn't put them on par with Superman, and realistically they shouldn't be in the same game if you're wanting TRUE accuracy.

I see it like this: When designing characters, 8 is the highest you can go, so it should be considered that one character with a 6 won't be as good as another character featuring a 6, but both won't be good enough to go to a 7.  To what extent the power is used also should play a role.  So you take a character like Superman (who I agree is the biggest 4-stat goof in OverPower) and you immediately identify what stats he primarily would use:  Strength and Energy.  Then you identify what tier he is in those stats.  He's top tier in both, so he could have an 8 in both.  Then you make adjustments for balance sake, and you roundabout assign the other stats that aren't primarily used, going on their general use... most characters fall probably in the 2-4 intellect range unless they've exhibited exceptional long-term leadership/tactical skills, engineering or scientific proficiency to a further extent.  For energy, if they use a weapon of some kind that fires a projectile, a 3-4 is a good place to start.  You can even give inherent abilities to restrict how they use their powers.  Storm might be an 8 in actual power, but she doesn't want to hurt anyone so she pulls it back.  You can give her a base 7 energy and the inherent ability that her "Energy rating is 8 for defense."  They might have done more things like this had OverPower continued in production. 

Back to Superman, having 2 eights only does 2 things.  It offers him flexibility in different decks and allows him to play more teamworks/tactics.  That's really it.  Power wise, he's no stronger by his grid than any other character with an 8, though in comics he could probably demolish most 8 stat characters.  I think we all realize things like this.  We want justice for the heroes we love.  When we look at Batman and see a 7 Fighting, we're thinking, "man we've debated all our lives whether Batman could take Wolvie or not," knowing we never would've conjured up that dream fight unless we thought Batman could take Wolverine, the premier fighter of Marvel.  Only Cap could arguably outfight Wolverine in Marvel.  He's the best there is at what he does.  But so is Batman, just without the one-liner.  Wolvie, Batsy and Cap are all top tier fighters.  A list.  8's all around.  I'd like to add that Marrow can hang in a fight with The Wolverine.  She could probably outfight many 7's in OverPower and she only has a 6.  Her primary stat is fighting, but she's not a top tier fighter... not until they write her that way (Nic has a valid point here).  If Marrow become popular again and has some shining moments in Xmen and becomes a solid character for many story arcs to come, her fighting ability can go up a point to 7.  If I were going to make Zangief into an OverPower card, he's going to have an 8 strength, not because he can take Superman, that's absurd... but because Strength is his proficiency and he's top tier for strength in Street Fighter. 

Characters that deserve 2 8's...
1. I'll go with Superman.  7 energy suits me fine, but it wouldn't be a stretch for him to have an 8.  Strength is for sure a no brainer.
2. Surfer -  Power Cosmic (E), Cosmic Awareness (I), travels at superspeeds in space... an 8 energy for sure, but he might deserve a much higher intellect than he has, perhaps even an 8.  He's empowered by Galactus... that 8 strength might be fair.  I dunno...
3. Cable - Cable's bad. Though 26 points will keep him as far from decks as possible (inherent ability his total to 23), 8855 is probably justified, except for the techno virus taking up his telekinetic ability (they may have fixed that... I'm not sure).  Anyway, minus that, add those high energy weapons, multiply the opposition and divide up the beatings. 
4. Apocalypse -  Like breadmaster with Mr. Fantastic, I realize most will disagree, but I've reconsidered a previous discussion we had about big A and I have a new stance.  He's a premier Xmen villain.  Apocalypse is over 2000 years old.  He can change not only his size but also his form, he a genius in a laboratory, he can enslave people and enhance their abilities for doing his will, he never dies, he created the techno virus (I think)... he can do pretty much whatever he wants.  Same as Thor, forget special cards that raise his strength to 8 for the battle, I'm pretty sure he'll come prepared.  Yeah the Xmen always beat him, but that's because the good guys win.  Potentially he could destroy them all, he's just a victim of bad writing.  And we can't forget that he had his own Age of Apocalypse!  3488.  Let the hate begin. 
5. Thor could have 2 8's.

I never thought about Mr. Fantastic being an 8 Fighter... Palatinus questioned whether fighting knowledge should play a role in fighting rating or not... I'm inclined to think that his power isn't in fighting... I'm not really even sure what stat his power would fall under, but he isn't a trained martial artist, and I think that counts.  I'm sure he's a knowledgeable fighter, but not a trained fighter such as Wolvie or Cap.  But he's certainly better than a 5 in fighting.  So is Sinister.  Love that bad guy.

I've gotta rest... but I really like this discussion.  I think there are quite a few characters that could be considered for two 8's, and many 7's that are probably worthy to get that extra point for an 8, but I do agree that it could get out of hand.  Only a few select should be considered, and most of the ones I mentioned were just for the sake of consideration or argument... except Apocalypse.  He's worth two 8's.  zzz...zzz...zzz...
 

id put cabe at 8845
and because troop likes him
http://marvel.wikia.com/En_Sabah_Nur_(Earth-616)
and marrow can 1 duplicate at atime
so thor 8684? http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/1396.png indeed
so superman 8484?

nic, martian manhunter's psi powers are indeed on Xavier's level.  you can google XvsMM and look at various topics where it's debated.  regardless of who comes out on top (there seems to be a slight lean towards prof), they are certainly close enough power-wise to have the same grid.  now, whether prof should even BE an 8 energy is another discussion

not sure why you'd assume I don't realize how powerful storm really is.  I think I own every appearance of hers up to 1997, so unless she's had a phoenix-level upgrade since then, i'd say you're REALLY underestimating thor.  he's used his energy powers to drive off galactus...GALACTUS!  he's not just a dude throwing lightning bolts

speaking of big G.  I wonder why he's always given an 8 in fighting...does galactus have a black belt in space-karate?

the reason I think fantastic should have an 8 fighting, is because there's no other way to classify his 'stretchiness'.  take plastic man.  one of the most powerful characters, yet you can't give him high energy/strength/intellect ratings.  that leaves stretching for fighting (where I also think speed should be factored, but that's another topic).  if captain America were to fight reed, what could he possibly do to hurt/subdue him?  also why I've argued before that spidey should get an 8f. 

bread- I didn't mean to insult your knowledge of Storm. chalk that up to me being VERY impressed with Storm lately, and (wrongly?) supposing others might not know, like me.

as for MM, I did exactly that, actually. consider me educated!

lol@ Space-Karate, btw

thetrooper27- I think you make a great point with MvC. in that perspective, and in terms of what it would do for gameplay and balance, I certainly wouldn't be upset by dual-8 for Batman or Superman (or Thor or Apocalypse, etc etc).

lastly, the stickiness of stretchiness- some talents, as inherent as they may be, simply cannot be classified by the 4-stat. Mr.F's abilities certainly fall there. the solution is in the Special cards. Gambit's Charm is a GREAT example of a Special representing an otherwise difficult to quantify, but ultimately signature ability of a character. Spider Sense is a good example of a near-miss that follows along the same lines. Spider-man is not a trained fighter, but his Spider Sense gives him an INCREDIBLE edge in a fight. likewise, Mr.F's Object Bounce was a good idea, even if it was short-sighted. fortunately, The Marvels card he got (Elasticity) was much better.

Speed sees a similar representation. people have mentioned how speed can enhance the physical strength of a punch, and that is perfectly represented (IMO) by Quicksilver's High Speed Impact (11S AS). obviously, Flash should have had something similar, if not altogether better. fortunately, Flash's AI is a MUCH better card than Quicksilver's AU, which both represent a similar "effect" of their apeeds. along the same lines, I feel like Nightcrawler's "speed" was actually VERY well rep'd by his Specials and I had no problem whatsoever with his original 5E. was I happy to see him get a little bump? of course! but did he (or his abilities) need it? not really. Half of his Specials pretty directly relate to his amazing ability to teleport. one of them is called BAMF! for crying out loud! (btw, this whole portion relates VERY well to the Shatterstar discussion). IMO, it's actually quite a shame that he lost the exclusivity of his version of that AD... seriously, he got robbed with that short-sighted botch.

anyway, glad to offer my 2 cents. now I'm WAAAY past my bedtime, so I'll pick this up tomorrow too. 'night all!

I think it was someone who made their own cards, they made galactus 9199, by creating 9e9s9i opds.

Perhaps there could be variants that make these heroes stronger.

Red son superman? 2x8
Storm 8 can be debated.

Kinda off topic, but why didn't any of the supermen get a special to play superman specials?

I've been really digging about the Mr. Fantastic with an 8F, and it's logical.  But I think it would've been better represented in a good AR Fighting special, or a big AS Fighting special.  Fantastic Mind should've been a big fighting attack.  I think his Fighting is WAAAAY underestimated though.  He's pretty awesome. 

Lately, Iceman has been doing some big things... making ice bodies that he can control to fight and such.  Not to mention his energy capability is really high... you could debate him being an 8 now.  But I think the tier placement is the key to putting characters where they belong in terms of balance.  I think comics in general have taken powers way beyond what they should have.  Pulling the adamantium out of Wolverine and manipulating the iron in everyone's blood just made Magneto even more powerful than he already was.  It was a neat story twist, but now you wonder why he doesn't just drop everyone when he shows up because he could.  No one should be able to stop him.  I'm not a scientist, and I can't imagine the potential powers could have, but in the early days, a guy could throw snowballs or ice shards, and a girl could move stuff with her mind and read minds, or a guy could heal from wounds and he was a remarkable fighter.  Now Iceman can freeze all the earth if he were so inclined, everyone knows what Jean Grey can do, and Wolverine was pretty much nuked at ground zero by Nitro, and because of one cell that wasn't evaporated, he fully regenerated to his complete hairy awesomeness.  No one stays dead... not really.  I was even thinking about technology in comics... they create pretty much anything they need no matter how preposterous it is.  Forge is probably miserable.  Beast does what only Forge should be able to do.  You couldn't infiltrate the Xmansion or the Baxter Building... there's no threat anymore.  Power levels and technology are just way off the charts.  Even Superman was just a super man in the beginning.  He was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.  Now he can cross the planet in no time flat, he literally can't be destroyed by anything other than kryptonite or magic (which made his Doomsday fight so awesome because it was just a huge fight),  and he can actually fly rather than jump really high.

I know we're talking about OverPower and character ratings, but I'm going off on a rabbit trail to demonstrate how any character can have an 8 in their appropriate stat if someone writing them favors them.  Mr. Fantastic can outfight Cap, Wolvie, Batman, Sabretooth, Zealot, Bullseye, etc. if the person writing him needs him to win the fight, and it makes sense that he could do so in the right circumstances.  Character growth is cool in stories, but it would be nice if there were a true measure to how powerful a character is.  The rules have been broken too many times, and now everyone is the most awesome whatever they are in comics.  Why shouldn't Human Torch and Invisible Woman have 8's as well?  Look at what they can do!  Invisible Woman is one of the most powerful characters in ANY universe, stuck on a max 6.

I like the tier placement method for deciding stats.

Tier 1 gets an 8.
Tier 2 gets a 7.
Tier 3 gets a 6.

Inherent abilities and specials make up for exceptional and uncommon uses, and each character should have something that makes them considerable for deckbuilding.

Based on this, who do you feel would have 2 8's?         

Trooper, after reading that post.
Perhaps the tiers are true and that is why this game has artifacts.
Maybe there should be an 8 stat artifact? 8 to use? 6ap teammate?

That's a fantastic post, Trooper. You hit the nail on the head; depending on the writer, or the story/situation, any character could gain level 8 power in a category or two (or three or four). After all, they are superheroes / villains. I've revised a few more characters and decided that only Superman would have the dual 8's. I have two Batman characters (standard Batman with an 8F-7I and Dark Knight Returns Batman which is 2-7-4-8) and am working on a third (Batman of Zur-En-Arrh with a possible grid of 4-7-6-3), so in my revisions I brought Batman back to a 7 Intellect.

I like the idea of Mr.Fantastic getting a Level 8 fighting special or other characters who have been shown to display high powered skills in certain stories or situations being rewarded with 'bumps' from their normal grid stats. Perhaps a better way to look at the grids is a measure of consistency. In no way would I ever place Mr.Fantastic on the same level as Batman or Deathstroke. The superpowers of Mr.Fantastic greatly enhanced his fighting ability, whereas Batman and Deathstroke are trained fighters, with Batman having no super powers at all and Deathstroke having super enhancements, which would justify their 8 fighting skill. So many X-Men and some of the Fantastic Four have often been written to showcase their incredible superpowers, but in looking at the history of Iceman or Storm or Human Torch, I think we have enough examples to justify their 7 energy rating. 

No one will ever be 100% happy with the default grids, which is why I redid so many, using my own homemade characters and the characters Bios created as a base to try to perfect each character. The key is striking a balance so the tiers of 6/7/8 have balance so one doesn't end up with 20 max 6 characters and 100 8 level characters to choose from. So, for me, I'm keeping it simple and giving my only dual 8 rating to the aptly named, Superman.

what led you to make superman dual 8, and not thor?  superman has planet-wrecking energy abilities, no doubt, but thor's are generally greater

batman at 7 intellect is interesting.  overall, he probably could be argued to be lower than fantastic/doom, but then you run into the problem that if you drop batman to 7, you'll have a hard time justifying anyone in dc getting an 8.  batman and luthor are more or less 1a and 1b when it comes to earthbound characters

I think the thing that makes Batman so intelligent is he's about where Iron Man is in tech knowledge, but on top of that he's probably the most intuitive detective in comics.  Batman can beat anyone with prep time... so I'm told.  No one can stop him.