Palatinus' OverPower Forum

I just did this card last night, and have been ruminating on it since. Then teesaw, my OP-customs fairy god-being, posted his Any Battlesite card. So I figured, put this up here, get some feedback. There are some design notes underneath the image.



Originally, this was based on GL for power stats, but with the following inherent ability: Larfleeze may not be Spectrum KO'd by Intellect or Energy cards. My thinking was this: in the comics, Larfleeze is the only Orange Lantern because of the effect of complete avarice. It also made him basically invulnerable to reason (though you could get him to do almost anything by framing it as "someone else has it"). He also  is a lantern (albeit not green) and I think that basically every Lantern corps would be unable to be spectrum KO'd by energy attacks.

At that point, I realized Larfleeze's only Spectrum KO option was a multi, a strength, and a fighting. Considering that there are other Lantern corps I'm trying to leave design room open for, and that of all the corps Larfleeze is the only corps of 1 (2, temporarily, when Luthor was gang-pressed into service) and he has never been effectively deposed as the Orange Lantern, I think he must be unreasonably resilient. Even compared to other Lantern Corps. So I figured, try the "No Spec KO" first. If it turns out to be nutty and broken, move back to the Intellect/Energy limitation. If that still is too unfair, scale it back to Energy like Green Lantern.

As for his actual statting, he gets the same Energy as Green Lantern (I assume all Lantern Corps would be 7 on energy). His fighting I increased, though I could see arguments for the opposite. My logic was, he generates his own army, he's resisted attempts to wrest his lantern from him, and he survived the Blackest Night. But he doesn't actually do his own fighting, so I could see arguments to the reverse. For strength, he is roughly human-analogous, so I statted him the same as Green Lantern. Finally, his intellect is lower than Green Lantern, obviously (again, GL was the easy analogue here, as he has essentially the same power group).

Thoughts? Is this going to be extremely broken? Or not at all? I also put the colon in so that I can do Lex Luthor: Orange Lantern later on, and give him some kind of access to Lex Luthor and Larfleeze (orange lantern) specials.

Also this was my first card where I put in a background, then separated a character image from its background and added transparency around, the inserted the character over the new background (I got the idea from teesaw's Nick Fury hero template). So criticism is appreciated. Just leave the fonts alone. I know they're not right.

From the wording of the character name, the Specials would be for Larfleeze?

I originally had the name composed as Orange Lantern: Larfleeze. I should have noted that in the design notes: Until I get the correct fonts, I had to put the name backwards, or it was too large and covered part of the art (and when shrunk to the proper size, it looked funky).

That way it would be Orange Lantern: Lex Luthor for the other logical OL card. And then I assume the specials would be "Orange Lantern" specials. The issue I have is, with that kind of formatting, my understanding is that Orange Lanterns would then not be usable in the same deck under the clone/variant rule. I think. No one has adequately explained that rule without an actual chart of what's a clone and what's a variant. But I'm trying to avoid having lanterns be unplayable in the same deck, as it doesn't make any sense from a flavor standpoint (like, a team of 4 Green Lanterns or any other Lanterns would be totally normal and expected).

     Since (besides Lex) he's the only Orange Lantern, I could see leaving the name Larfleeze as is, making the Specials for Larfleeze, and Lex: Orange Lantern may play Larfleeze Specials, or at least certain ones.  That way it keeps the names different so that they can be used together, like Cap A & Superpatriot or Beast & Dark Beast.

http://overpower.ca/wiki/Clones

I've read that a few times, and like I said above, it doesn't adequately explain the rule. It still requires a chart because it lacks internally consistent logic. To be specific:

Characters from different Marvel Universes (as coded under the universe system) can be variants of each other. But they can also be clones of each other. Example:

Spider-Man (Peter Parker, Earth-616) and Spider-Man: Symbiotic Costume (Peter Parker, Earth-616) are variants.
Beast (Hank McCoy, Earth-616) and Beast: The Brute (Hank McCoy, Earth-1298) are variants.

Beast (Hank McCoy, Earth-616) and Dark Beast (Hank McCoy, Earth-295) are clones.


This is not internally consistent. If the same individual from a single timeline but with different abilities is a variant (as is the case above with Spider-Man), and the same individual from two distinct timelines is a clone, then the same individual from two distinct timelines cannot also be a variant.

In the logic of comic books, the same person from two distinct timelines (Earths) could easily be on the same team as the other. Cross-dimensional transit is relatively common. The same individual from the same timeline would not have an easy time being on the same team as him/herself, as that would require time travel (which in the Earth classification system, would create a new Earth anyway and then turn them into a new Character).

So any representation of a distinct individual from a single timeline would be a variant to itself. Therefore they could not share the same team. But any representation of the same individual from a different timeline would be a clone, and therefore would be playable. That would require a re-organization of the rule for a number of characters, likely in ways that would be detrimental to the game, but my point is that that is at least a functional logic. Under the current system, a character with a colon in the name might be the same person, like this:

Angel (Warren Worthington, Earth-616) and Angel: Horseman of Apocalypse (Warren Worthington, Earth-616)
Spider-Man (Peter Parker, Earth-616) and Spider-Man: Symbiotic Costume (Peter Parker, Earth-616)

or they might be two distinct people, like this:

Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde, Earth-616) and Shadowcat: Age of Apocalypse (Kitty Rasputin, Earth-295)
Doctor Doom (Victor Von Doom, Earth-616) and Doctor Doom: 2099 (Victor Von Doom, Earth-928)

Due to the lack of consistency, it's hard to tell whether or not characters that are distinct individuals will be allowable on the same team.

So when I'm naming characters, I'm still a little unsure on how to title them to make it clear that all Green Lanterns (whether it's Green Lantern, who should in my opinion be Green Lantern: Kyle Rayner, or the as-yet unmade Green Lantern: Hal Jordan or Green Lantern: Guy Gardner) can use Green Lantern Specials. Because in my mind, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to play a GL team. But you shouldn't be able to play Parallax and GL: Hal Jordan together (not that you could because of that absurd Hero/Villain code, which is frustrating and doesn't follow comic book logic very well either. Catwoman/Batman have worked together plenty of times, as have Green Lantern: Hal Jordan and Yellow Lantern: Sinestro, etc.)

Realistically, this is all moot. I still haven't even gotten to play an actual game of OverPower, and even if I did these aren't game-legal cards I'm creating.

I was more interested in whether or not being completely immune to one type of KO (which as I understand is one of the most common types) was a game-breaking area of design space (and therefore not a desirable one to explore). If it isn't, it's possible that an inherent ability of "Cannot be Cumulative KO'd" might be worth exploring as well. If it is game-breaking, it becomes easier to narrow down the space left to develop. I would know that immunity to 1 Power type is fine (even across KO's, if Grifter is not broken), and that immunity to a KO type is too stong. So the next area would be immunity to multiple power types, and then multiple power types across both forms of KO.

Not that I'm in a rush to make cards with all of that text. I'm just very into game design (and comic book lore), and trying to get some feedback from active players on mechanics' power levels.

    Not to nitpick, but Bios has done cards for Green Lantern Kyle, Green Lantern Guy, and Hal Jordan.  I've also seen other cards for Hal Jordan, and for Spectre, and a character card for Green Lantern Hal.  Using homemade cards, there are several locations that allow use of random teams greater than 76 (at a penalty, of course), you could theoretically make a team of Green Lantern Hal, Parallax, Spectre, and Hal Jordan (minimum grid comes in at 84), making an utterly time-impossible team!
    The point of this:  The original game was inconsistent at best, so making and using homemade cards allows us to develop certain aspects of characters to be what the maker wants them to be.  Follow your vision and do what is right for you!  Have fun with it, and don't worry about "breaking" the game - considering the work done on this site and others, and that the game has been out of print for 15 years, I think OverPower is strong enough to hold everybody's opinions.

Wow, way to slam it home! LOL, no, I actually appreciate that. Card design has become larger part of my CCG hobby as I've gotten older and have less and less time to play (work, marriage, etc demand a lot of prime CCG-tourney times). It's easy to start taking it too seriously, and become overly hung-up on meaningless consideration over largely irrelevant details. I'm going to focus more on sharing what I've got under construction and on developing the tools/skills I need to make higher quality cards, and less on the qualities of individual cards in the larger context of the game.

I'd really love to see the GL cards Bios has done. I'll have to search for them.

I'm hitting a bottleneck on my 2099 series, I need to buy a flatbed scanner and go hunting at comic shops (sadly, when cleaning out my closet a few years ago, I offloaded many of my mid-90s comics, including a massive pile of 2099 issues) to find more images. Google is not fertile enough ground.

In the meantime, I've started working on a few other projects. Larfleeze was just a lark last night, and then I realized I knew nothing about the limits of design space in this game so I started this thread. But I have lots of wild ideas I hadn't thought about further. I remember one Spider-Man issue, where he's under Mysterio's thrall (or something) and the Venom Symbiote appears to possess Galactus (which then appears to be a movie scene, etc). That would be a funny character to do. Or maybe a Howard the Duck character card. Or Lobo.

http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/custom-cards/overpower-homemade-set-by-bios/

not being able to be spectrum ko'd period is strong, make it unable to be spectrum ko'ed by specials or power cards, much more balanced.

like Rogue variants. or if you prefer Ghost Rider's innate?

or maybe something nobody else has yet, a half version of X-Babies, make him unable to be spectrum or cumulative ko'ed by power cards. one of them not both




i don't think clone/variant is hard to understand, your putting too much into it.

the variant is like the same person just a different phase, same person just slightly altered

Sue reed is not visible on Bios hero! *chuckle

Quote from: Tussin on November 30, 2014, 04:30:39 PM
http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/custom-cards/overpower-homemade-set-by-bios/

not being able to be spectrum ko'd period is strong, make it unable to be spectrum ko'ed by specials or power cards, much more balanced.

like Rogue variants. or if you prefer Ghost Rider's innate?

or maybe something nobody else has yet, a half version of X-Babies, make him unable to be spectrum or cumulative ko'ed by power cards. one of them not both




i don't think clone/variant is hard to understand, your putting too much into it.

the variant is like the same person just a different phase, same person just slightly altered

That statement about variants doesn't work though. The Brute is not Beast slightly altered. Neither is The Fallen. Nor is Doom 2099.  They're entirely different people, in different realities, not a different phase of the same person or the same person slightly altered. Only characters like Invisible Woman: Malice are the same person in a different phase, because they are actually that specific character from that reality. Don't get me wrong, it's not that big a deal, but there is definitely NOT a consistent pattern to Variant/Clone. That's what is so frustrating, the determination is based on a chart not an actual system with well-defined rules based on the character's relationships as defined in the comic mythos. For example, if I do Cyclops: Age of Apocalypse, is he a clone or a variant? Because Colossus, Shadowcat, Wolverine would indicate variant, but Beast would indicate clone (his AoA version of Dark Beast is a clone, not a variant... which it should be. The other 3 should logically be clones, not variants, under the current definition as I understand it).