Overpower: Power Balance - New Custom Expansion!

[PowerBalance]

Thanks Breadmaster. Although those were not art choices, but artwork drawn specifically for Power Balance by commissioned artists. The guy had to imitate the style of the artwork in the existing OverPower expansions (well, up to Classic anyway), and he's done a really good job!

Ha ha - yeah, great minds think alike hey? We'll see if Viper is too strong as a result - it has been play tested a bit, but shouldn't be too much of an advantage, given her Power Grid.

[Nate Grey]

Wow! That's all I can say at the moment. Gorgeous artwork! Those character cards are just stunning and maintain the feel of the game. I will definitely be inquiring about getting a set...or two.    Those power cards are currently what I'm most excited about. Would be awesome to start seeing some Multi 5 power cards in our decks as well as those Any Power cards. Great stuff! Congrats and thanks for reigniting more excitement into the game.

[PowerBalance]

Nate, glad you like the Character cards! As mentioned on the website, it was critical to maintain the feel of the game and reproduce EVERY little detail to make it as genuine as possible. The commissioned artist I used was very skilled, and fortunately did a really good job. I have to admit, even I was surpised how well they turned out when I first received them from the printer.

And yes, it's really cool just to be able to hold a hand full of Any-Power cards that just look like they all "belong"!

Thanks for your comments - just glad the OverPower community can benefit from this!

[thetrooper27]

WAAAAAY awesome.  I would play with any homemade cards that look this good, even if not tourney legal.  Having cards printed on real stock makes them so much cooler than home prints or office max prints.  I appreciate that there are yet even more groups that love this game enough to further keep it fresh.  I hope I have an opportunity to get a few sets from you, and please join us in making suggestions to this community's custom sets, as well as your own.  Great group of guys here onthe Palatinus OP Forum... welcome aboard!!!

[skeevo666]

Lovin' the cards! The rules . . . not so much. I've never had a problem with OP's mechanics (I remember a guidebook to CCGs praising it for not being another Magic gameplay clone, especially considering how close it's debut was to M:tG)

The changes suggested remind me of another 'overhaul' to the game, this one by players from New England about 12-13 years ago if my memory serves.

I agree with knnthwht that the proposed changes are too much of a departure from what is a very streamlined game. You could call it "ReCharge" if you wanted to, pretty sure that name is free 

[PowerBalance]

Thetrooper27, glad to hear it! It certainly does feel nice playing with actual cards, not just home prints of them. Yes, I would be honoured to make suggestions to the OverPower community custom sets! In fact, feel free to hit me up if you guys want info on the printers, commissioned artists and graphics designers used in the process. It would be great if the OverPower community had the BEST custom made cards of any CCG!

Skeevo666, that's understandable. You certainly don't have to play with the rules suggested here at all! You can just use the cards like normal if you really wanted. There really aren't that many departures though, just a new way to allocate Point Value and some new ways to play some cards. In any case, glad you love the designs. Also, cool how both you and knnthwht posted on this topic as one of your first posts in the Palatinus forums - very honoured!

[thetrooper27]

I think the rules are different... but I wouldn't say they don't feel like overpower yet.  I want to experiment with them before passing judgment.  My initial thought was:

Multipower cards will get much less use.

Looking at the point value system (which would be hard for me to calculate based on the formula... I'm not a math whiz), I see alot of my favorite characters becoming costly where they were a fit before... Hulk, Wolverine... these guys are up to 23 points now!  But I won't say it isn't worth it.  Here's why.

With the new design of doubleshots, I'm seeing alot more defensive capability for multiple characters on a team, even if they don't have great defensive specials.  OverPower needs a means to evade more attacks, particularly for max 6'ers.  Broadening the spectrum range might be good for the low end characters, making them strong contenders vs. the big guys.  I do like the idea of that balance... if it works out.  Most characters wouldn't be able to use a level 3, 4, or 5 multipower card because they don't have a 3, 4, or 5 in all stats, so you won't likely include multipower cards in a deck, unless they're 1's and 2's.  Gambit and Captan Britain can play a 4 multipower card, but Wolvie and Hulk can't.  And unless you have a team designed to play level 4 multipower cards, you probably won't include one in your deck just for Gambit or Captain Britain.  The 5 multipower is ONLY playable by Apocalypse, I think, so it's wouldn't likely get use at all!  In addition, you get the spectrum balance that they're going for with Gambit, but I still think you're gonna land more hits with Hulk and Wolvie, because low end multipower cards aren't hard to block, but 8's of any type are.  Even combined with doubleshots, as this set permits you to do, there just aren't that many characters to utilize them up to an 8 and 9 point combined capability.  Jubilee can only play a level 2 multipower card, so a 6 is the biggest attack she can make with a multipower doubleshot.  That's not too terribly hard to block.  So the big guns win out again.  But this is just at first glance.  I read the breakdown of the rules and I think it's fresh and neat... so it's worth trying out. 

Someone mentioned the New England rules, and while I don't think this is the same thing, the reference sheet for point totals DOES feel similar, and I'm not a fan of that.  I kinda feel the same about the special rules for battlesites.  I suppose you could reprint each site with its restrictions or each character with a point value on the card, because I don't know how to calculate the value (if the character comes out to 21.7777777 do you round up to 21.8 or down to 21.7?).  The list works fine, but it does add that complication.  Otherwise, I think it would be a neat way to play overpower.  Having a handful of anypower cards would be nice, even with the restrictions on playing other cards with them... at least until you want to play one with a teamwork and can't. 

The battlesite/anyhero changes could work out well, too.  But I have a question.  The PowerBalance rules state:

  "The Battlesite Restriction – The Battlesite Restriction is an OverPower deck-building rule that governs the use of
specials with Battlesites in a Tournament Legal deck. Each special card used with a Battlesite must have a different special
code. Any two specials with the same special code (e.g. AG for Avoid 1 Attack) are considered duplicate and cannot be
included. Only a maximum of twelve (12) specials may be placed into a deck, which may include a single "One Per Deck"
special. Specials must be usable by the basic version of the character listed on the location card – if Storm is listed, then all
specials playable by Storm are usable, but not those playable by "Storm: Neutralized", which would include Morlocks
special cards."

In the regular rules, you can't have duplicate codes on a battlesite anyway.  Other than the Storm example and the number of specials on the battlesite (12), how is this rule different than the regular rule?  Are we no longer using activators?  I wasn't sure if I was missing something about the way battlesites are played.

So these are my first thoughts.  I'm interested to see if doubleshots will be as effective as they seem.  More defense is good, but will we be going to power pack battles more often?  Would the spectrum advantage of well rounded characters make up for their smaller numbers in comparison to the hoss characters?  Are these changes enough to consider building teams based on grids more than on their specials cards?  What else am I missing?  I gotta get some sleep... I've been sitting here for too long.   But that's only because I like it.

The effort is much appreciated whichever way the votes go.  I must give that to you, Mr. PowerBalance.  The art is beautiful, genuine in it's feel, and I believe that many will get use out of your card sets, even just for the power cards and the fun new teamworks.  I think they will all like Galactus at 24 points better than 27 though... I hope everyone likes the doubleshots!  I know I do. 

[PowerBalance]

TheTrooper - cool to have someone go through it with a fine-tooth comb and so methodically as well! You rock man - that's the kind of constructive input which could further the attempts at balancing this game.

In response to your observations:

1) Multipower cards will get much less use.

Yes! But more correctly, MultiPower cards will be much HARDER to use. As you saw from reading the reasoning behind the the minor changes (http://www.oppowerbalance.net/rules.html), this gives opportunity for characters with better "all-round" power grids an advantage.  For example, how can characters like Hydra or New Warriors possibly match up against favourites like Hulk and Wolverine in their current state? They just can't! Restricting power houses like Hulk and Wolverine from using MultiPower cards is only a very small step to trying to minimize this HUGE discrepancy between effectiveness of the characters, but as mentioned it is still just a small step. Why should it be so hard to play level 8 Power cards which contribute to cumulative K.O., but yet so easy to play MultiPower cards which only add to one's spectrum K.O. ability? What benefit do these "all-round" characters get? Shouldn't the ability to play MultiPower cards BE that benefit? Even so, they still only act as any other Power card with regards to duplicates, so the benefit is still small.

There are still MANY characters that can utilize level 4 MultiPower cards, (Alpha Flight, Captain Britian, Captain Mar-Vell, Cyclops, Deathlok, Gambit, just to name a few). As for level 5, there are 5 characters who can play them (Apocalypse, Hydra, New Warriors, Hydra and Team X), making them as rare as the max 8 characters! These characters get a REALLY big benefit from the DoubleShot cards, giving them the ability to create a LEVEL 13 attack/defense, which could block even X-Man's Ultimate Potential!

Isn't it good now that those power houses have one thing less going for them, and have weaker characters have one more thing on their side? Not only that, if you have the ability to play level 4 MultiPower cards, you get two extra cards to play with - a level 4 MultiPower Teamwork and a level 4 DoubleShot card. This gives characters like Hydra and New Warriors an edge they never had before. Yes, they still wouldn't stand up to Wolverine or Hulk, but that's why the new Point Value system has taken care of that.

2) Jubilee can only play a level 2 MultiPower card, so a 6 is the biggest attack she can make with a MultiPower DoubleShot.

Not quite. The DoubleShots allow combination of ANY Power Type Power Card up to level 5 with the DoubleShot card. Since Jubilee's max stat is 6, then if someone could play a DoubleShot on the team, she could still play a level 5 Power Card to add up to 9 (with TWO power types mind you), that even Hulk or Wolverine couldn't block. The whole concept of DoubleShots was to create an attack that even max 8 characters couldn't block with a single Power card, which would tear down their immense defensive capabilities greatly. How funny would it be to see Hulk being beaten by a combination of Jubilee and Hydra, two characters who are so underpowered compared to Hulk? This is when it starts getting interesting, hey? The high attacks have actually proven to make for some REALLY quick games if played carefully. Really starts introducing some heavy mind games with all-round characters now! Hulk and Wolverine doesn't feel so safe anymore, that's for sure!

Not only that, as you pointed out earlier, they now have greater defensive abilities as well since the DoubleShots can now be used as a TWO-PART DEFENSE, maintaining card advantage! How cool is that? Now Teamwork cards aren't the only other card besides Power Cards that really add anything to the game.

3) The Battlesite Restriction

Actually, there is no real change with this at all. I just added it in because going by the last true instruction manual included in Monumental, there was no mention of this, and I just wanted to make newcomers to the game aware of the change, who weren't regular followers of the OverPower Legion newsletter. Sure, The Rules page on the website http://www.oppowerbalance.net looks daunting because it's so long, but in actual fact, there are only very few changes. The page is just long because of the explanations and rationalisation of these small changes!

4) Any-Power cards

Now that Any-Power cards aren't OPD, you can now create a team that doesn't need to match the Power Grids at all. As long as they all have a level 5 or above in their grid (which EVERYONE does), they can start using Any-Power cards. Just use the Any-Power cards as defense, and then use Specials for offense. What an exciting new way to make a team, and also a much better use for Any-Power cards? Imagine a team with Jean Grey, Angel, Colossus and Leader - they all have 7 in their grid, but all in different Power Types. Now they can work together! LOL!

This would create teams that are WAY too poweful, because certain characters have Specials that are WAY too overpowered as they are. *cough*Vertigo*cough* Imagine them all combined together in one devastating team - yipes! As a result, there has to be some sort of compromise, which comes in the form of a lowered Point Value limit.

5) Are these changes enough to consider building teams based on grids more than on their specials cards?

Ooh, I'd hope not! The whole point of this rule system to create a good foundation for balance, but the Specials cards themselves still need to be balanced HEAPS! Which is why I am so proud of the people behind the scenes working on the "Absolute/Ultimate Evil" custom set. They are tackling the imbalance from the Specials perspective, which clearly is a MASSIVE task on its own, whilst still letting the community provide their thoughts. They have been extremely methodical in their attempts to balance but ranking characters into tiers, and trying to fill voids in the characters' abilities, but at the same time, giving heaps of room for creativity. It would be a great day if all attempts to balance the game merged together to form one unified front!

Anyways, feel free to playtest it, and yes, go ahead, find the holes in the system!!! Nothing is perfect the way it is, and hopefully, as a community, we can correct this! If this gets popular enough, we can begin production of a new set which could contain the cards YOU guys think will be necessary to create the balance we're after!

[steve2275]

NEW CONDITIONS FOR INHERENT ABILITY OF HOMEBASES:
Avalon - "Avalon's Team may not Venture more than 1 Mission Card per battle."
Blue Area Of The Moon - "Blue Area Of The Moon's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of team is greater than 80."
Four Freedoms Plaza - "Any shifted attack which utilizes Four Freedoms Plaza's Inherent Ability must be defended, and can only be defended by a non-Special card."
Gamma Base - "Gamma Base's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Landau, Luckman & Lake - "Landau, Luckman & Lake's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Madripoor - "Madripoor's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
Princess Bar - "Opponent may pick up one additional card for each mission ventured by Princess Bar's Team if Point Value of Team is greater than 80. Discard duplicates."
Sanctum Sanctorum - "Sanctum Sanctorum's Team is -6 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
The Savage Land - "The Savage Land's Team is -2 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
The Sewer - "The Sewer's Team is -4 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."
X-Mansion - "X-Mansion's Team is -9 to Venture Total per battle if Point Value of Team is greater than 80."

not a fan of those changes
especially avalon

NEW RULE (THE BATTLESITE RESTRICTION):Only a maximum of twelve (12) specials may be placed into a deck, which may include a single "One Per Deck" special.
or this

but i do like the multipower teamworks any power and doubleshots

[thetrooper27]

-6 to venture total seems steep in any case.  -2 should be sufficient, if necessary at all.     

[PowerBalance]

Hey cool - thanks for the input guys! It would certainly be worthwhile giving it a good playtest, and we can find out if those "new conditions" are even necessary at all. I had a playtest myself, and Princess Bar was far too poweful. The Four Freedoms Plaza is actually the condition the official legion put in place, not what I had instated. If you guys find that it's balanced as it is, we can strip the conditions for homebases. Let me know how it goes.

Also, guys, you'll have to hold up on the orders at the moment. I've run out of the handful I've got right now, but will resume taking orders when I get the rest of the sets in. Thanks for the interest so far though!

[breadmaster]

i like the idea of the multi double shots and tws.   i  also like the idea of restricting multi use, but fear it may be too radically different.  helping these characters is a great idea though, since they are actually HURT by the fact they are well rounded rather than helped.  hydra can't hold a candle to prof x!

off the top of my head, apocalypse/hydra/new warriors can use the 5m.  i assume more can: do you have a list of characters that could use the 5m and 4m?

[PowerBalance]

Breadmaster, glad you like the idea of the MultiPower DoubleShots and Teamwork cards. The restriction of MultiPower use can actually be a great balancing factor, in combination with everything else, because as you mentioned, currently Hydra can't hold a candle to Prof X. However, try creating the best possible deck you can with max-8 characters with the current Point Value system (which will only allow two such characters on a team), and match them against teams that are only max-6 and play MultiPower cards using the new Point Value system as well (especially if you can add just one character who can play 5 MultiPower). If you play very carefully, making clever choices, using the DoubleShot cards to create attacks that cannot be defended by the max-8 characters, the two of the max-8 characters can be taken down fairly quickly (sometimes as quickly as two attacks - a level 11 attack with 5 Multi DS + lvl 6 Power card, then level 9 with level 4 Multi DS + lvl 5 Power card). Sure, it still requires careful play, but it's so refreshing (AND satisfying) to see that it is no longer something special when a group of max-6 characters can beat the most well constructed max-8 teams! Yes, it CAN happen fairly easily, as max-8 characters are definitely NOT ANYWHERE as safe as they used to be. Yes, he may be frickin' Wolverine, but watch him fall. Give it a shot, and you'll see what I mean! I kid you not.

For your reference, here are all the characters who can play 4 MultiPower:

4 Multi Characters
MARVEL
Alpha Flight
Apocalypse (5 Multi)
Beta Ray Bill
Cable
Captain Britain
Captain Mar-vell
Cyclops
Deathlok
Galactus (5 Multi)
Gambit
Green Goblin
Hellfire Club
Human Torch
Hydra (5 Multi)
The Inhumans
Maggot
Mercury
Mr. Sinister
New Warriors (5 Multi)
Sauron (5 Multi)
Sunfire
Super Skrull
Team X (5 Multi)
Thor
Thunderbolts
Vision
Warlock

DC
Batman: Avenger
Batman: Detective
Blue Beetle
Comm. Gorder and the G.C.P.D
Comm. James Gordon
Doctor Polaris
Hawkman
Martian Manhunter
Ra's Al Ghul: Sword Master

Image
Backlash (5 Multi)
Grifter
Malebolgia
Ripclaw
Tiffany

Another list I thought might be very useful to you guys is a list of characters who are only one Artifact Card away from being able to play level 5 MultiPower cards (i.e. all stats except ONE rating are above 5). Using the Artifact card will bring this rating to 7, making them effectively able to play level 5 MultiPower cards. The sheer number of characters who are actually can do this actually make 5 Multi cards VERY MUCH more playable than initially expected.

Experienced players will think Artifact cards are just a waste of a turn, but if the character is sitting in reserve and you actually create a situation where a character is able to play a 5 MultiPower (especially if someone else on the team is already able to play level 4 MultiPower cards), it opens up so many offensive options (created by the new cards in Power Balance) that it actually becomes worthwhile. As mentioned before, the goal was to allow ALL cards in OverPower to be useful, and this was one of the ways we could see Artifact cards actually used competitively. Try this and see as well!

MARVEL
Absorbing Man
Adam Warlock
Angel: Horseman Of Apcalypse
Banshee
Beast
Beta Ray Bill
Black Panther
Cable
Captain Mar-vell
Dark Beast
Deathlok
Doctor Doom: 2099
Doctor Octopus
Dracula
Forge
Ghost Rider
Goblyn Queen
Grey King
Hulk: Mr. Fix-It
Iron Man
Ka-Zar
The Kree
Magneto
Mephisto
Mercury
Morbius
Mystique
Omega Red
Onslaught
Psycho-Man
The Reavers
Scarlet Spider
Scorpion
Sentinels
Shang Chi: Master Of Kung Fu
Silver Surfer
Spider-Man
Spider-Man: Symbiotic Costume
Storm: Bloodstorm
Thor
Thunderbolts
Venom
Vision
Warlock

DC
Aquaman
Bane
Comm. Gorderand and the G.C.P.D
Darkseid
Hazard
Penguin
Wonder Woman

Image
Brass
Malebolgia
Overtkill
Shadowhawk

Thanks for the feedback - glad to hear from someone who is into balancing the game too! I still think the specials is a BIG issue with regards to balance - something that is a whole 'nother ball game. Absolute/Ultimate Evils is definitely a step in the right direction!

[gameplan.exe]

... because as you mentioned, currently Hydra can't hold a candle to Prof X. ... Yes, he may be frickin' Wolverine, but watch him fall...

Experienced players will think Artifact cards are just a waste of a turn, but if the character is sitting in reserve and you actually create a situation where a character is able to play a 5 MultiPower (especially if someone else on the team is already able to play level 4 MultiPower cards), it opens up so many offensive options (created by the new cards in Power Balance) that it actually becomes worthwhile. As mentioned before, the goal was to allow ALL cards in OverPower to be useful, and this was one of the ways we could see Artifact cards actually used competitively. Try this and see as well!

Let me start by saying that I've only given the new cards a once-over, and I haven't read the new mechanics in full detail, yet. I am a huge fan of the artwork and general feel to these cards, and so I'm pretty sure I'll end up ordering a set or four 

A few things stood out to me here, though.

1) I get the idea of making the game more balanced, but are there many max-6 characters who SHOULD be able to stand up to Professor X, Spawn, Wolverine, Hulk, Dr.Doom, etc? I mean, there are a few max-6ers whose sum of their grid is clearly better the max of their grid. Gambit has defeated Sabretooth, Hydra has had their victories over Capt America, and I'm sure that Captain Mar-Vell has taken down his share of giant-sized baddies... but should Jubilee and Shadowcat really have a shot against Magneto? I mean, if you are nerfing max-8ers, or building up max-6ers, at a certain point it seems like the Power grids have lost their purpose...

2) Maybe I got the wrong impression, but by the sound of that last quoted paragraph, it seems like you'd be including a 5M in the deck when the only person who could use it would be that one-off character (like Beast)... if that's the case, that's currently a no-no, because every card in your deck must be playable from the start, with no modifications... right?

3) It seems like one of my favorite Homebases gets a lot better under some of these new variations:

DANGER ROOM!! 

[thetrooper27]

What if mulitpower cards had a different discard rule than regular power cards... say level 4multipower cards aren't considered dupes of other level 4 power cards, but ARE dupes of other 4 multipower cards?