Apocalypse

[BasiliskFang]

how about if it is played as an event?

play when drawn, target's non-opd cards that contain the text "frob" now contain the text "frog". discard when apoc's team loses venture. OPD

so it can not be used via battlesite.

[gameplan.exe]

how about if it is played as an event?

play when drawn, target's non-opd cards that contain the text "frob" now contain the text "frog". discard when apoc's team loses venture. OPD

so it can not be used via battlesite.

I think the Venture clause could be good enough...

hey, what about this:
"Play on target Special to change effect from "remainder of Battle" to "remainder of Game."

this would limit a TON of abuse, but still give opportunity for a unique and powerful effect.

thoughts?

[Hotobu]

So what does the card say now?

With any combination of the suggested amendments it's still very abusable. First off it'd have to be limited to OPDs because of the cards I suggested before. Even being tasked with having to win a venture and keeping it to non-OPDs it'd still be too strong because there are some good cards whose effects only last for a battle that if carried over to another battle could be game breaking. Here's a few scenarios.

Apocalypse and Beast are the last two characters left. Beast plays Acrobatics. Apocalypse plays suggested special. Apocalypse dies, and Beast manages to win the Venture. With the way people's decks are constructed the only attacks Beast can now be hit with are Teamworks. It's possible the other player can go several hands without a teamwork (IF he's got any left), or in the worst case the opponent only has one character left, making Beast invincible for the remainder of the game.

Vertigo is still a huge reason that this would be broken.

Iceman's Snowblind, or any defense lowering special.

AX specials when the opponent only has one character left.

A DZ special to force a stalemate.

There's probably a few others that'd be crazy too.

[thetrooper27]

"For remainder of game, the duration of Apocalypse's non-OPD specials is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game.  This special may not be played from a battlesite." OPD.

Maybe the wording could be shortened, but I think this keeps it to Apocalypse only, preventing abuse.  None of his nonOPD's are particularly broken even with this special, in my opinion.  Coupled with a new grid, maybe a good inherent ability, and the event special being tweaked, Apocalypse might find his place in a deck or two.  I would play him in reserve just because he's cool if he had an 8 Intellect.

I also considered that Apocalypse never really dies.  So maybe he could have a special that moves him to the reserve when he's ko'd.  I know this could be abused by ko events and such, but I'm sure we could work out the kinks to give him a res special that wouldn't be abused.  Just a thought... if you guys don't wanna go there for the Ultimate Evils set, that's cool. 

[BasiliskFang]

damn, its not like one special is gonna make him god of the game.

[thetrooper27]

This is true BFang... but I think it's the battlesite abuse that's causing the dilemma, big brother.   I just reconsidered the way I worded it, and to be honest, I'm not sure that's even good enough, because Apocalypse himself can abuse other specials activated to him from battlesites.  Making the special usable with specials other than Apocalypse opens up the door to lots of nasty combos... I think the card needs to be tested to validate its usage and the restrictions it needs.  Against a fun deck of random cool characters with jank specials, it might be a powerhouse.  But against a tuned tournament deck with negates and KL's, it might not be as bad as it seems.  I'm not the best person to think of hypotheticals, but this is where I stand with it.  I like the idea of the card, but the key is going to be limiting it to Apocalypse specials.

Wait... i just had a great idea...

How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card!  We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:

(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD

It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!!  And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card.  This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma).

If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...

[gameplan.exe]

This is true BFang... but I think it's the battlesite abuse that's causing the dilemma, big brother.   I just reconsidered the way I worded it, and to be honest, I'm not sure that's even good enough, because Apocalypse himself can abuse other specials activated to him from battlesites.  Making the special usable with specials other than Apocalypse opens up the door to lots of nasty combos... I think the card needs to be tested to validate its usage and the restrictions it needs.  Against a fun deck of random cool characters with jank specials, it might be a powerhouse.  But against a tuned tournament deck with negates and KL's, it might not be as bad as it seems.  I'm not the best person to think of hypotheticals, but this is where I stand with it.  I like the idea of the card, but the key is going to be limiting it to Apocalypse specials.

Wait... i just had a great idea...

How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card!  We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:

(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD

It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!!  And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card.  This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma).

If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...

I feel kinda dumb that I never even considered naming the Specials that would become FROG! Also, yes, this would be a great way to give him a pair of complementary Specials for this set!

[steve2275]

Wait... i just had a great idea...

How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card!  We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:

(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD

It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!!  And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card.  This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma).

If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...

im cool with that
change both of the above to OPD

[Hotobu]

Why not just get rid of the idea of the special all together and give him an inherent that makes those cards last for the remainder of the game?

This makes far more sense from a game design standpoint for a multitude of reasons.

[BasiliskFang]

Like a variant character card?

[thetrooper27]

Yeah... I think someonementioned Apocalypse should have an 8 Intellect, and I agree.  But we should drop his strength.

Give him the inherent, and another good special.  I also think we should discuss further making an any aspect KL of some kind.  Being able to play any ko'd teammate's specials is gonna rock pretty hard.  Not just for Apocalypse, but at the same time, we could think about making some better specials all around for bad guys with a KL available for every deck. 

[gameplan.exe]

Yeah... I think someonementioned Apocalypse should have an 8 Intellect, and I agree.  But we should drop his strength.

Give him the inherent, and another good special.  I also think we should discuss further making an any aspect KL of some kind.  Being able to play any ko'd teammate's specials is gonna rock pretty hard.  Not just for Apocalypse, but at the same time, we could think about making some better specials all around for bad guys with a KL available for every deck.

I disagree about Apocalypse' intellect. I think he's only smart because of his age, but he's not actually inventing or creating much. most of his genetic "research" has been watching humanity or hiring Mr. Sinister (or others). I always thought his 6Int was just about perfect.

also, it seems like an I.A. would be too easy to get these cards as FROG. I mean, at that point you might as well rewrite the Specials. any "weakness" you might get from a printed I.A. seems like it'd be lost from the boon of having non-OPD FROG effects. his AY, for example, should be a OPD if it's FROG...

I think forcing the play of a separate Special keeps a balance on these non-OPD FROBs.

... isn't there some kind of old saying about creating things by committee...? something like, "such-and-such is a horse made by committee..." LOL

[BasiliskFang]

A camel is a horse designed by committee

[gameplan.exe]

A camel is a horse designed by committee

there it is! 

[thetrooper27]

So you like my original idea, ncann, or are you thinking something different altogether?  Anyone else?  If we aren't changing the grid, we won't need a new character card... which I considered if we made a new one for an official set, the old one would never get used, but I don't really mind that.  Did anyone think of another cool nonOPD that we could make for remainder of battle for Apocalypse that the OPD could upgrade?  Instant evolution and enhance strength might not be enough for this special to be good.  He's gonna need something that he can use that will be beneficial to him in case you don't have the OPD.  If you don't have the OPD played before the special cards, they're going to be duds mostly... you might be able to use the 8 strength, and you might play a ko'd teammates specials, but I don't see playing multiples of those cards.  The goal is to get the OPD in play to take Apocalypse from ok to awesome.  I'm cool with the OPD instead of the I.A. but it's gonna be tough to get it into play in time to make it useful.  It will almost require the right events or battlesite specials (thor, ghost rider, banshee, etc.) to work it consistently.  I think building Apocalypse up with specials is a cool idea... maybe worth further exploring.

Survival of the Fittest is his gimick.  Maybe if you get a certain combination of specials in play, say 3 nonOPD's and the OPD, those 4 specials are discarded, he permanently gains those effects as an I.A., and everyone else is ko'd except apocalypse.  This might seem ridiculous (and it very well may be) but I'm proposing that somehow Apocalypse will be the only character in your front line, he can play everyone's specials on his team, and he becomes hard (but not impossible) to ko (say hits to ko becomes 30).  This isn't how I would imagine it conclusively, we would have to discuss working out the kinks, but it would be a totally different dynamic for a character, and would hopefully pay off if you could successfully get the combo of specials in play.  He's 23 points, and not worth them when Scarlet Witch is 17 and awesome, or Xbabies is 15 and broken.   

This might be a stretch.  But we've taken this discussion all over the place... why not carry it on a little longer and see what we come up with?