The Age of Apocalypse

[DoktorSleepless]

Enter Now... The Age of Apocalypse!   RE - EDIT: Updated characters after revisions, added new characters

EDIT NOTES: Colossus and X-Man are "reprints" with art updates. Domino's ability is the reflection of her normal IA (this time it's for attack, not defense). Jubilee is obviously going to raise some concerns. I am not sure the ability is too powerful, but obviously I pushed it very hard. She just seems like such a bad character most of the time, but in AoA she's actually able to use her abilities at the molecular level; still, she spends most of the series distracting others from herself or teammates (or blinding them, etc). So I tweaked her to allow dupes of everything instead of just Blinding Flare. Yes, it's extreme. I expect I may have to rein it in. But I want community input. I looked at her specials, and except dupe "teammate avoids" and "avoid teamwork attacks" and that 4E attack, I can't see anything too concerning. If any or all of those are too good, they can be removed from her ability. Let me know your thoughts, people.

FURTHER EDITS: I pushed some of the IA's in this group very hard. I'm particularly curious what the community's thoughts on Nightcrawler's IA, but also Banshee, Havok, and Rogue's as well. I also bumped some characters that took a more central role in the series up by 1 point on their power grid.

XMAS UPDATE! More info on these later. Happy Holidays!

These are what I've done so far. I really feel like Abyss should have an IA, but can't figure out what it should be. Something that makes it feel like he absorbs attacks. Maybe "opponents' Power Cards are -1 to Attack against Abyss". Maybe it should be "attack and defense". I don't know. Also, I'm happy with Cyclops, but Gambit was done that was as a filler. I don't like the idea of filling in every character I can't find a great image of with the AoA map and a cleaned up version of them on top of it, but good art is hard to find. Also, I took Abyss's stats from the marvel U page for the main reality character on the 7 point scale, added a point to each to make it out of 8, and then tweaked the numbers very slightly (pretty standard for AoA characters to have the same total points but slightly different distributions, usually around strength and intellect unless the story line altered their energy or fighting ability).

Constructive input is, as always, welcome.

[MHC]

Magneto's inherent ability is far too strong.  He can play 4 different teamworks, all of which give a +3/+4 bonus or better.  Every teamwork that he plays can result in one or two attacks that are greater than a 9 (6s, 7s, and 8s all allow for this). No character should be able to repeatedly allow teammates to make multiple power card attacks that can only be stopped by strong avoids (i.e., cards that say Avoid 1 attack or avoid 1 power card attack). 

Edit:  I should point out that Magneto's IA is far better than a normal character with an 8-stat that can play teamworks with an 8-to-use requirement.  First, the 8-to-use teamworks only grant a +2/+3 bonus.  Second, Magento can play 4 unique teamworks.  A deck with characters that have an 8-stat in one skill can only get one +2/+3 teamwork without the chance for duplicates.  A deck with characters that have an 8-stat in two different skills can only play two +2/+3 teamworks without the chance for duplicates. 

Edit 2: Since you wanted some constructive criticism, I have a suggestion for an IA that would still be strong, but not break the game.  Something like: Teammates' first follow up attacks to Universe: Teamwork cards receives an extra +1 bonus.  This would turn +1/+2 bonuses into +2/+2 and turn +2/+2 bonuses into +3/+2.  The effect is still quite strong since you are upgrading all of the teamworks, but it doesn't make it easy to make attacks that are higher than a 9.

[DoktorSleepless]

I won't argue the strength too much, I haven't actually played the card. It's distinctly possible it is too strong. If there's a general agreement that's the case, I could see dropping it to +1. But I'm a little confused on part of your reasoning.

Are you comparing him to an 8-stat to show how much stronger his ability makes his teamwork cards than an 8-stat character's teamworks would be? Because obviously he doesn't have an 8-stat. And the whole point of his ability is that working alone, he likely will not beat Apocalypse:AoA (or even any of his Horsemen, if I've statted them well) head-on. But add in his team, it's a different story. From a flavor perspective, it makes sense to me that the leader of the X-Men in a world where they are constantly battling to survive would give a strong teamwork bonus. Whereas your average 8-stat character doesn't necessarily have any sort of strong team-leaning characteristic that might make them have more powerful teamwork (strongest guys don't always make the strongest team players). Conversely, your point on the bonuses is well reasoned, so maybe flavor takes a backseat here. But, a couple of questions come to mind:

1) How many different teamwork cards are reasonably expected to be in a deck? Given that they decrease in usefulness as teammates get KO'd, and that duplicates are discarded, is it really concerning that decks would get stacked with teamworks to exploit the bonuses?  Again, this is an actual question. I've literally never attended an OP tournament, so I'm not sure whether this should be a concern.

[Also, my teesaw-inspired dream for AoA is that the set reaches a size and level of playability such that it could be printed for use in sealed-tournament play, so I am VERY interested in making sure that these cards are fun and playable, not broken. I take input like this very seriously, as an unbalanced character absolutely cannot slip through the cracks on this set in my opinion]

2) Would the bonus be less heinous if he wasn't 6 or higher in 3 stats? because his intellect could easily be dropped to 5 (and strength pushed to 3, if the total needs to be kept static). That would give him access to only 3 distinct teamwork cards. Again, I'm not sure where the lines are here. I saw Forge's ability (teamwork bonuses +1) and given that he can access at least 2 Teamworks where the bonus would be +2 and +3 or +3 and +3 (again, this means that a 6 through 8 allows for the apparently dreaded 9-attack), I knew I wanted Magneto to have a stronger one.

3) Again, give me some slack for this question, I have no tournament history: Since teamwork cards require power cards to apply the bonus to, is it really such a concern? I just have difficulty wrapping my mind around the idea that you could stuff a bunch of Teamwork in your deck but then manage to draw 1 teamwork (no duplicate), a 6 or higher power card and another 6 or higher power card (no duplicates), and then that the same/similar draw could happen again the next turn. It seems far more likely that even if you do draw that hand, you aren't going to have high-power cards with every teamwork you get, and many will get spent turning 1-5 attacks into 3-7 attacks.

Like I said, I don't actually know. No one has hit me up telling me to come play in CO, and it was hard enough to get my wife to learn to play MtG. She's not learning OP any time soon. So I don't have any way to effectively play-test these cards in design (that's why I try to use pre-existing cards as models). But if there's a general agreement that +2 is too strong, I can certainly alter the ability. I'm not trying to make broken cards that are terrible and no fun, just trying to push cards to find the edges of design space in the game.

There's even room to argue that Magneto's Energy rating should be lower (they make a BIG point out of how he lost "half" his mutant gift destroying Apocalypse's ship, and I generously only lowered his Energy rating by 1), so it's possible again that the IA might not be the broken bit, but his stats. Between the Energy rating loss, and a potential 1-point IQ drop (shifted to Strength), maybe Magneto should have that strong a teamwork bonus because he'd only have access to 1 or 2 teamwork. Say, if he was 6-6-3-5. Yes, that would reduce him from 21 to 19 points, but that might be totally appropriate given the context of the character.

Still, good food for thought. I would love to hear any other input on Magneto, so I can potentially return to the drawing board and re-work him.

And of course, still looking for IA input on Abyss.


*SAW YOUR 2nd EDIT*
So it seems like the crux of your argument revolves around the +2 bonus, as your suggestion still sticks to +1. I'm curious how you would feel about this:
Magneto: AoA
6-6-3-5
Teammates' first follow-up attack to Universe: Teamwork cards receives an additional +2 bonus

At that point, he's significantly weaker than the version I posted originally, but (I think) still gives a potent boost to teamwork cards. Thoughts?

[MHC]

(again, this means that a 6 through 8 allows for the apparently dreaded 9-attack)

Quick clarification: level 9 attacks are not my concern. Level 10 and higher are.  Those are the attacks that are harder to stop because they can't be blocked by cards that say "avoid one attack of nine or less"

Are you comparing him to an 8-stat to show how much stronger his ability makes his teamwork cards than an 8-stat character's teamworks would be?

Yes, that was my intention.  His current IA makes any teamwork he plays as good or better than an 8-to-use teamwork.  He also has the advantage that he can use 5 teamworks  (I forgot about the any power teamwork) that won't be duplicates.

How many different teamwork cards are reasonably expected to be in a deck?

The answer to this definitely depends on the strategy of the deck, but decks normally range between having  2 to 6 teamworks.  Because they are level six attacks, teamworks are one of the easiest ways to increase the average venture value of the cards in your deck without adding duplicates or cards only usable by one character.  Given his current AI, I would think that any one playing Magneto would try to max out the number of teamworks in their deck. 

Given that they decrease in usefulness as teammates get KO'd, and that duplicates are discarded, is it really concerning that decks would get stacked with teamworks to exploit the bonuses?

Since teamwork cards require power cards to apply the bonus to, is it really such a concern?  I just have difficulty wrapping my mind around the idea that you could stuff a bunch of Teamwork in your deck but then manage to draw 1 teamwork (no duplicate), a 6 or higher power card and another 6 or higher power card (no duplicates), and then that the same/similar draw could happen again the next turn.

My answer to both of these questions is 'yes'.  I'll address both together:

First, because Magneto can play 5 unique teamworks, there is no chance that those cards will be duplicates.  There is a chance that only he can play one of the teamworks, but it is not hard to build a deck where all of his stats are backed up.  Thus, because of the advantage his IA grants your team, there is a very large incentive to maximize the number of teamworks in your deck, and it is easy to do so without adding duplicates.   

Second, my major concern with his AI is that it turns him into an offensive character who enables large attacks with very little effort.  It is true that you won't always have back-to-back battles every game where you draw a teamwork card and two power cards with a value greater than 5.  However, if you build your deck to maximize the usefulness of his AI (e.g., three 8s, three 7s, three 6s, and maybe one more 6 or 7), it is going to be relatively common for you to have multiple battles in each game where you do draw at least one teamwork and one high level power card.  It is also going to be common for you to draw a teamwork and multiple high level power cards.  Finally, in the games where you do draw well in back-to-back battles, you are going to easily KO one, if not more, characters.  In total, this means that you have  character who makes it relatively easy to KO other characters by making attacks (and in some cases, multiple attacks) that are 10 or greater.

It seems far more likely that even if you do draw that hand, you aren't going to have high-power cards with every teamwork you get, and many will get spent turning 1-5 attacks into 3-7 attacks.

His AI actually turns 1-5 attacks into 4-8 attacks at the worst (first follow up to a +1/+2 teamwork).  For the second follow up you are guaranteed to turn a 1-5 into a 5-9.  This is really strong, particularly when you start to follow up teamwork attacks with multipower cards.  Turning a 4 multi into a 7 or 8 multi makes it really easy to spectrum KO characters. 

Would the bonus be less heinous if he wasn't 6 or higher in 3 stats?

This would definitely make him less powerful, but I suspect it would not be a big enough drop in power to matter.  Making his IA the same as Forge's IA would be a safer bet.  (I forgot that Forge had that IA, so I take back my original suggestion and instead suggest that the +2 be changed to a +1). 

*SAW YOUR 2nd EDIT*
So it seems like the crux of your argument revolves around the +2 bonus, as your suggestion still sticks to +1. I'm curious how you would feel about this:
Magneto: AoA
6-6-3-5
Teammates' first follow-up attack to Universe: Teamwork cards receives an additional +2 bonus

At that point, he's significantly weaker than the version I posted originally, but (I think) still gives a potent boost to teamwork cards. Thoughts?

This is also an interesting change. Reducing him to a max 6 definitely makes him an easier target to kill.  Having only two six stats also makes it harder to abuse his IA.  This is probably an adequate change from a power-level perspective.  From a flavor perspective, his stats are a bit disappointing. 

[Tussin]

for Abyss you could make his innate... Abyss has 8 Strength Rating for defense.

[justa]

I think Holocaust could use either a grid tweak or an IA to make something different from the legacy card.  Unless you really want to just remake the legacy card, I which case the picture is slightly better.
Gambit with no IA is interesting.
Mikhail has a "sup" where he needs a "spu" on the character card.  At that level, I sure hope he gets better specials than they gave Deathlok, Hydra, and GCPD.
For Abyss's (try pronouncing that 10 times) IA, from a mainstream prospective, you use use his ribbon/coil effect.  That seems to kick in highest when he's angry or scared, so maybe a variation of Crux would work - "If Abyss has at least 1 hit on his PR, he may avoid any attack with a level 1 Energy power card".  From the AoA prospective, he was also able to sense the fear of others. Maybe something along the lines of "Energy power cards are +1 to attack (defend) if target (attacker) has a hit on their PR".  Can't think of an example that is similar to that one.
justa thought

[DoktorSleepless]

Obviously Magneto needs some adjustment, although I'm not sure how hard to nerf him. I'll wait and see if anyone else chimes in, then revisit him in a few days.

I am hesitant to redo Holocaust for 2 reasons:
1) The version first produced in OP was the AoA version.
2) Genocide was introduced in 616-continuity, and appears to be the main continuity version (Beast to his Dark Beast, as it were). By all rights HE should be the one with an altered stat set from Holocaust.

So my intent with this set was to "reprint" any AoA character that's been done, with different art, including:
Dark Beast
X-Man
Holocaust
Wolverine: AoA (Might try to rejigger his name to be appropriate)
Colossus: AoA
Shadowcat: AoA
Anyone else I may have missed in my perusal

And of course, I am torn over Morph. They printed (apparently) the AoA version the first time, and all his art was amazing and perfectly AoA all the way through. But I feel obligated to try and find new art.

I couldn't figure out an IA for Gambit, and didn't want to copy. So I thought maybe NOT having one would make this version stand out.

As far as Mikhail, you're right! Not only does he need a fix on the name, but he needs some strong specials. He's largely absent from the comics, but I'm planning on at least a few of his specials being strong. "Handler Murdock" or whatever Matt Murdock's name was in AoA, will be one of them, though I haven't nailed down what it will be.

I could revisit his stats if you think they need work though. He had very little in the MU, and I wasn't sure if fan ratings for an Earth-616 version on a 7 point scale were a good reference point. I know that he seems like he ought to be rather fearsome, but kind of isn't.


I like the Abyss ideas. I'd personally lean towards the aggressive version of "E. Power cards are +1 to attack if target has a hit on their PR". That's just a personal preference, largely because I feel like the Horsemen and Apocalypse should all be very aggressive. They're trying to conquer a world, after all.

[adamsonofwilliam]

Really stoked that you made these up!  I've always been a fan of AoA and in recent discussions, a few of my students have taken a big interest in it.

Can't say too much about the mechanics you chosen as I'm slowly easing back into it, but if you're open to suggestions for characters, the AoA version of Sabretooth was always a favourite of mine.  I'd imagine his stats to be even better than the current 'Tooth character, and can't you just picture a Wildchild special to go along with it!?  A bit surprised they never made him back in the day.

[steve2275]

if anyone needs a  good i a its gambit

[Tussin]

up give Gambit oomph i would give this for his innate...

May Draw 1 card from draw pile after playing "Charge Object", discard duplicates.



power up teamwork cards and don't take a minus one, you can still possibly can with a duplicate, but it gives the card some use and gives him a much needed boost

and not as powerful as Magneto's innate

and for Magneto... i would rework his innate... he has a few unusable specials... so if you want to boost teamworks from Magneto, lets incorporate it with a special... hmm what about this?

Universe: Teamwork cards are +2 Bonus when Magnetic Shield is in play.



thoughts?

Jean Grey i would follow her previous style... give her this for innate... nothing major but it gives the option.

May play "Telekinesis" from reserve.

[DoktorSleepless]

@Tussin your suggestions are, as always, insightful and helpful!

The Magneto tweak is exactly the kind of clause I was looking for to make his Teamwork boost conditional but extremely strong at times. I've reviewed Mag's other specials, and I identified 3 that are obviously kind of weak and could work as the "clause card" in question. I don't want to encourage playing "Evil Genius" with AOA Mags, so Gravity Alteration and Magnetic Shield are the others. I'm inclined to think you got it right on the first try with Magnetic Shield. If that's too good, we could always try 'Teamwork bonus is +2 for remainder of battle if Magneto:AoA has played "Gravity Alteration" Special Card this battle.'

Gambit's IA is good, and helps to cope with the fact every time you play Charge Object you're dumping 3 cards from your hand at a minimum (as I've always understood and played the card). How much stronger is drawing 2 cards than 1, I wonder? I'm not saying it should be 2 cards, just curious if the 2 cards would feel strong and team-leaderish or overly strong and unfair.

Jean's TK from reserve seems fine. I really don't have anything clever to add on that one.

@MHC, if you're reading this, what do you think on Magneto's tweak? Does the conditional clause bring it down enough to make it strong but fair without changing his stats?

I'll hopefully do some more AoA and 2099 stuff (still haven't updated that thread yet) this weekend.

[MHC]

@MHC, if you're reading this, what do you think on Magneto's tweak? Does the conditional clause bring it down enough to make it strong but fair without changing his stats?

I think altering Magneto's IA so that the bonus is active only when Magnetic Shield is in play would be fine.  If that change were made, it would be nice if Magnetic Shield could be played offensively with a teamwork card (like Professor X's Telepathic Coordination).  While there is always the chance that this gets your teamwork negated (because the special is played with it), allowing the special to be played offensively with a teamwork would avoid the issue of having to spend a turn playing Magnetic Shield. It would also make Magnetic Shield + Magneto's IA function like non-OPD but restricted version of Telepathic Coordination. 

[Tussin]

with everyone working hard on creating new sets, i can help with analytical suggestions to throw back to the creators

for Cyclops i was thinking of giving him reserve love... what if he could play this from reserve?

Cyclops :AOA may play X-Men Strategy from reserve.

the characters in AOA are more battle experienced, it gives him the same style and flair, and an option for reserve. nothing strong, just a nice touch.

just fine tune a few things.. more than just an art upgrade and stat switch, a new way for them to play in the game

i think Gambit is fine at 1 card, its just to replenish his special use, a teamwork does damage, but a basic universe or training card doesn't. but if you want to tweak it... say you can draw 1 card on a teamwork, 2 cards with a basic/training universe.

i think Apocalypse innate is a little beef without a cost...

i suggest tethering it to Enhance Strength or Instant Evolution or both?



7S+2 bonus runs over every 8 stat character out there in a straight up power card match. i would make it equivalent or better with a card cost.

i am thinking it would be better to leave his stats as is... but give a +1 bonus to power cards per card in effect from (AY) and (CL) specials... totaling up to a +2 to power card bonus

it fits the theme of apocalypse as well, trying to balance it out

[DoktorSleepless]

I like the idea of X-Men Strategy from Reserve, but not the title of the card (it sits wrong in AOA to have cyclops' pushed special be X-Men Strategy). I would propose one of the following:

1) "Functional Reprint" - Change the title on the card, maybe alter it to be only a Cyclops:AoA special.
This option feels awkward to me, so I stand behind option

2) May play Visual Sweep (AA) from reserve. (Level 4 E attack, may make 1 additional attack against a different target)
I really feel like that's a better fit than X-Men Strategy for flavor purposes, and might be a lot stronger too.

I hadn't considered the Power Card head to head for Apocalypse (except insofar as "he probably just wins" was on my mind), and had just figured you could still play most Avoids. You're probably right to tie it to specials; I would lean towards both. Keep in mind, he ought to be winning most head-to-head fights if he connects. Until the end of AoA, you see him pretty well stomp the most powerful characters around him (let's see... he murders Rictor by snapping his neck, he shows up with some infinites and pounds Magneto and Bishop into submission, flashbacks show him nearly drowning Sunfire IN BLOOD). So I'd support the +1 to power cards for each special in effect, up to +2. That way, if he plays either special, he's boosted. If he plays both, he's insanely powerful.

As far as Magneto, I like the idea of Magnetic Shield functioning as a sort of lower-power Telepathic Coordination. I'm not sure how to word it so that while it's in play his teamwork bonuses are +2 and that he can play it offensively with a teamwork. Maybe:

Universe: Teamwork cards are +2 bonus when "Magnetic Shield" is in play.
May play "Magnetic Shield" with Universe: Teamwork cards.

I don't know. I'm not feeling extremely sharp with regards to phrasing today. But that makes Magnetic Shield pretty legit. You can play it with a Teamwork, and Mags gets in his attack, both his teammates get in strong attacks, and their defense is boosted for the battle. Of course, to MHC's point, it also opens up the possibility that a negate shuts down the whole thing. Which actually feels good. Yeah. If this IA language can get phrased a little better, I'm on board with this.

[justa]

Cool IA for Cyke.  Additional attack could be Remove Visor, or Wide Beam, even Focused Force.  Quite the attack ability from reserve.