so i was thinking about ultimate evil

[Demacus]

I wouldn't go 2I for Lizard.  He's always boasting about how his reptilian brain is so much smarter then the mammalian brain, plus he's a level 7I as Connor's easy.  I wouldn't go lower then a 4I for Lizard, as the only appearances of his that I've read personally where he seems to be acting on pure instinct alone was the "Torment" mini-series, which was issues #1-5 of Spider-Man, back in like '90/'92ish.  McFarlane did those issues, so pre-Spawn.  Lizard has always shown cunning while in combat with Spider-Man, which is why I would vote for a 4I or better on that particular character. 

[breadmaster]

as I see it, 2 intellect puts you in the 90-110 iq range, or 'normal'. 

as it is, intellect is one of those stats that doesn't even matter at low levels.  they are just raised or lowered arbitrarily to get characters into that 16-20 sum deck 'sweet spot'

[thetrooper27]

To be fair, I read the -3/-6 as "if opponent plays" so it might be better if you can get 6 points... but again, Askani's Son doens't make it into Cable decks, but he has a slew of good specials, and that could be why.  Sorry I overlooked that.

As far as the intellect discussion goes, I get that you can't have a bunch of 23 point characters floating around, or they'll never get played, but there should be a good blueprint for setting power values, with room to raise or lower particular stats get their grid in the playable range, even though so many characters have skewed grids.  You can drop a secondary stat by a point or two, or even raise them, but it should still be pretty close to an accurate portrayal.  Everyone can't be a perfect 19 points or you could just play anyone you wanted and there would be no sum deck rule.  If the proper grid makes a character 21 points, then they need great specials to make them optimal for deckbuilding.  If a character holds a 17 point grid, then they can have good utility specials, or be strong offensively, but should suffer in some other way since they fit so nicely into the deck and make room for a bigger character.  I'm sure this has been taken to its closest end, but all of this to say that grids should accurately reflect the abilities of the character.  Cable is a justified 23 point character by his ablities.  Onslaught is as well.  They're epic.  Cable has great cards, and Onslaught has some nice ones, too.  Iron Man is 22, and with Marvels, he's justified in that point total not only by ability, but also in special cards.  I like Iron Man so much more with the LO. 

I'm no Lizard expert either, but I agree that he's worthy of greater than a 2I.  If that raises his grid to a high value of 20-23, then give him great specials to make him playable.

[Demacus]

I can kind of see what you are getting at as far as the game mechanics making Intellect the "arbitrary" stat, but what about Energy?  The Lizard has 0 known energy powers.  Make his E rating a 1, then, even with a 4I, you've still got 11 points between Fighting and Strength, and that's JUST to get him to the 16 minimum.  You could claim that his ability to telepathically control lizards is justifiable of a higher energy rating, but it's not something he's always relying on, so I would argue against that.  Give him an energy special that reflects his use of Reptilian Telepathy.  Something new.  Acts as a level 4E attack.  If successful, Lizard may search the draw pile or dead pile for a Lizard special and put it in hand.  May not be duplicate.  Now you've covered this ability of his without unjustifiably increasing 1 stat that he really doesn't use otherwise.

Beast is another character who's Energy stat is too high.  What kind of energy powers does Beast have to justify a level 2 Energy stat?

I can understand the higher Intellect stat for Lizard and Beast, but there are a ton of characters who have above a 1 in Energy that just shouldn't.  Pressed for time at the moment, so I'm not gonna list more, but you know they are out there.  Let Lizard have his Int rating.  It's really far more of who he is as a character then most any other stat.  Not even his fighting skill should be above a 4 or 5, giving you room for a 6/7 strength and a 6/7 Intellect.

Again, just my two cents...

[gameplan.exe]

dem, I think you make a great point about the Energy stat being a "slider" for sum totals too. really, I think we can find examples for all 4 stats being used this way in various characters, but there are just fewer INT-primary characters (or good ones). I mean, Wolvie has a 2E and I'm pretty sure it's solely to bump him to 19 points.

also, i agree that the 3> stats for character become much less important in deck build balancing

[thetrooper27]

I think it makes sense that if a character has a transformation ability or a healing ability, that explains the 2E.  Wolverine, Sabretooth, Savage Dragon, etc.  Characters off the top that have a 1E and probably should have a 2E based on this line of thinking are Hulk and Colossus.  Marrow has a 2E and a transformative type of power.  Spidey has a 3E and only the Spider-sense as a power relating to energy, so he's off a bit, and would get more playtime in the 20 point slot, since he's weak on specials except for the Marvel's addition.  Cap has a 2E, and should probably have a 1E based on my reasoning above... Cap at 19 would be cool.  In any case, none of these really change anything except how you design your power pack.  I think its fun to play with the grids, because if OverPower could be revamped, grids would likely be first established, and then the specials for each character designed based on the point value of the character.  Whether Lizard has a 2 or a 1E doesn't really matter in the grand scheme, but I would go with a 2 when matching him up to other characters with Energy being their arbitrary stat based on his abilities. 

I really dig the special Dem threw out there for Lizard... can you work that in?

     

[breadmaster]

here's what wiki has to say about lizard's intellect

'Based on various physiological and environmental factors, the Lizard's intelligence can range from bestial and animalistic to normal human intelligence. The Lizard personality has most often manifested with human intelligence, capable of speech and higher reasoning, although some versions have been more feral than others. During the Secret Wars in particular, he appeared less ruthless than his normal portrayal, showing concern for Volcana and the Wasp after they showed him kindness despite his usual disdain for humans. However, even when operating at the level of a human, the Lizard is rarely as intelligent as Dr. Connors, showing on many occasions an inability to understand his human-self's work and use it to further his own ends despite his best efforts.'

LIZARD

Energy: 4
Fighting: 6
Strength: 6
Intellect: 2

Dr. Connors: Play during battle. For remainder of game, any Special played by Lizard or Lizard's teammates may not be Negated until "Dr. Connors" is Negated. (MP) OPD
Bio Geneticist: Remove 1 Special card Hit from Lizard's or teammate's Permanent Record or Hits from Current Battle. (AL)
Cold Blooded: Acts as a level 6 Intellect attack. If successful, opponent -4 to Venture total. (HO)
Back to the Sewer: Avoid 1 attack. AG
Twitching Distraction: Play during battle. For remainder of game, any attack made with a Power Card against Lizard's team may be moved to Twitching Distraction. Lizard's team may not defend. Twitching Distraction is discarded after 1 Hit. EB
Pheromones: Team gains +2 to all actions for remainder of battle (BG) OPD

once again, kept all of CoSs stuff, making the change troop suggested to the EB.  if CoS reads this, what exactly is a 'twitching distraction'?  I kept it cause it sounds awesome, despite not understanding it

the last opd is an odd choice I added.  not sure if that best represents that particular ability or not.  however, it does pair up nicely with sewer's inherent (intellect cards +2 to defense).  I was even thinking of making lizards inherent power cards +1 or 2 to defense, but it may be too much

[thetrooper27]

Blocking a ten for a round doesn't seem too powerful... Maverick can do that.  Power cards being +2 to defense would basically make him an 8 on defense, and that's okay, I think.  What made you go with the 4E?  Just wondering... after reading that bit from wiki, I looked further, and it says that he has Superhuman level strength, so I thought 2672 might be good.  If you go with the 7 Strength, I would only make his inherent +1 instead of +2.  If another name was needed, the EB could be something like Reptilian Guards, or something.  Reptile hoards protecting Lizard.  That's a lame name, but you get the idea. 

I do wish that there was a special representing the Tail Whip... he's pretty ferocious, actually.  I'm kinda scared of the Lizard.  I thought he needed to keep the labcoat in the Amazing Spider-Man movie for cosmetic purposes, but they really brought him to life as a villain for me.  I always thought he looked kinda weak until I saw him on screen breaking stuff and shedding bullets.  

Bank that 4*, search for a special from draw pile or dead pile that Demacus suggested for another character.  That's a new card, it seems fair, yet great, and would fit nicely in someone's arsenal.  I like it!

[CoS]

"once again, kept all of CoSs stuff, making the change troop suggested to the EB.  if CoS reads this, what exactly is a 'twitching distraction'?  I kept it cause it sounds awesome, despite not understanding it "

- I don't know how many of you watched the newest incarnation of the Spiderman franchise but obviously the Lizard played an important role. There is a scene in it where the tale of the lizard is cut off and it keeps twitching... they are distracted by this and the lizard makes good his escape. I thought a image of a twitching lizard tale would be cool!

[steve2275]

- I don't know how many of you watched the newest incarnation of the Spiderman franchise but obviously the Lizard played an important role. There is a scene in it where the tale of the lizard is cut off and it keeps twitching... they are distracted by this and the lizard makes good his escape. I thought a image of a twitching lizard tale would be cool!

so
make that a BJ special?

[breadmaster]

tail whip...of course! can't leave that baby out.  we'll axe pheromones to make room for it. should it be a opd, or a normal card?

-acts as a level 7s attack
-acts as a level 10s attack OPD

what about a opd nx?

Acts as a level 10 Strength or Fighting attack. If not successful, Lizard is -2 to attack for remainder of battle. OPD

also, i'm kinda stuck on what stats to give mephisto.  i'm leaning towards an 8e and 7i.  marvel lists his fighting abilities as 7 (out of 7) as well as his strength (but I think his strength is dependant upon being in his own realm).  from the stories I've read with him, he's never displayed any kind of fighting prowess, but maybe I've just read the wrong stories .  my initial lean is to make him a 23 with the same stats as onslaught (8/2/6/7).  we could also make him one of those variable grid characters.  example:  4/4/4/7 with an inherent something like 'counts as 23 points for deck building, may add 4 points to grid at beginning of game

[chuu]

I don't think reptiles strength merits a 7. That would put him at the strength level of colossus. She-hulk and rogue. I don't think he's capable of ripping apart steel like they can.

[gameplan.exe]

tail whip...of course! can't leave that baby out.  we'll axe pheromones to make room for it. should it be a opd, or a normal card?

-acts as a level 7s attack
-acts as a level 10s attack OPD

what about a opd nx?

Acts as a level 10 Strength or Fighting attack. If not successful, Lizard is -2 to attack for remainder of battle. OPD

also, i'm kinda stuck on what stats to give mephisto.  i'm leaning towards an 8e and 7i.  marvel lists his fighting abilities as 7 (out of 7) as well as his strength (but I think his strength is dependant upon being in his own realm).  from the stories I've read with him, he's never displayed any kind of fighting prowess, but maybe I've just read the wrong stories .  my initial lean is to make him a 23 with the same stats as onslaught (8/2/6/7).  we could also make him one of those variable grid characters.  example:  4/4/4/7 with an inherent something like 'counts as 23 points for deck building, may add 4 points to grid at beginning of game

don't trust the stats on Marvel's site, they always seem screwy. Also, I'd shy away from a variable grid, if you intend to make this a streamlined expansion. It seems like that kind of system is too foreign (although I've seen some custom Homebases with a similar mechanic).

Cloning Onslaught's grid seems about right for mephisto... maybe actually swap the INT and ENG, tho?

[steve2275]

http://marvel.wikia.com/Mephisto_(Earth-616)
perhaps 8348

[gameplan.exe]

http://marvel.wikia.com/Mephisto_(Earth-616)
perhaps 8348

I think it's a bad idea to create a dual-8 stat character...