does anyone else think that Apocalypse got totally screwed in the Power Grid department? I mean, forget about how lame his specials are (Techno-Virus FTL), why is his power grid so crappy? i mean, did TPTB even know who Apocalypse is?
I tend to think Darkseid's grid is much closer to what Apocalypse's should have been: 6 3 8 6
does anyone else have ideas of how Apocalypse should have been created? does anyone use a homebrew hero card and/or specials?
I agree. 23 points, no 8 and mostly lousy cards.
Still, he can be made to work. I use him from time to time, primarily as a deckbuilding challenge to myself, but I still do it! ;)
I had thoughts about upgrading him... I think I may have gone a little overboard... but I stand by my assessment given how powerful he is in the comics. :D
Apocalypse: Age of Apocalypse
E -6
F -7
S -8
I - 7
New specials -
Evil incarnate - One Per Deck - negate the effect of any one special played by opponent. Apocalypse may discard this card to the top of the draw pile after use.
Eternal Might - Acts as a level 8 Anypower attack.
Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.
What do you think - too much? Not enough? :P
-BBH
I'd argue that your Apacalypse: AoA is too strong. He didn't really display anything in AoA that he hadn't done in the regular universe. If anything, he was a little less powerful - in what we actually saw/read him doing. He really was only as successful as he was because ProfX had died and it had a ripple effect. I'm in favor of changing him up, though. For AoA sake, I see it going something like this:
E- 4-6-7-6
because he never really used Energy in AoA, but he did duke it out with Magneto in that epic final fight.
-
As for adjusting his "normal" grid, I'd say make him a 6-4-7-6 as he tends to use Energy more than fisticuffs in the regular continuity.
+
I do really like the specials you gave him, though.
+
Also, make his AY special remain for game (still up to 8, still not OPD), making him a 6-4-8-6 (or 4-6-8-6) once that's in play. I don't think his strength should be a constant 8 because he's not constantly that strong. It requires action on his part to make himself stronger by changing his molecular structure on the fly (hence the longer lasting AY Special).
Yeah, the power grid might be too strong. Maybe. Possibly. But I like where you're going with it! I mean, if anything, TPTB should have erred on the side of "ridiculously powerful, almost so broken there are seventeen meta-rules specifically pertaining to Apocalypse deck-spamming strategies" instead of the "outrageously and prohibitively expensive with no 8 stat and no special cards to justify the expense" side. This is Apocalypse we're talking about. A mutant so evil and powerful he's named after the concept we use to describe the end of the world.
And those specials you came up with are really good! So good, in fact, I intend to make them like right now!
Quote from: a_noble_kaz on December 02, 2010, 04:00:04 PM
Yeah, the power grid might be too strong. Maybe. Possibly. But I like where you're going with it! I mean, if anything, TPTB should have erred on the side of "ridiculously powerful, almost so broken there are seventeen meta-rules specifically pertaining to Apocalypse deck-spamming strategies" instead of the "outrageously and prohibitively expensive with no 8 stat and no special cards to justify the expense" side. This is Apocalypse we're talking about. A mutant so evil and powerful he's named after the concept we use to describe the end of the world.
And those specials you came up with are really good! So good, in fact, I intend to make them like right now!
Like I said, I went overboard on the grid intentionally. But then, at 28 points, AoA Apocalypse would be cost prohibitive on a team (except for Ship, making that site more appealing.)
Alternatively, I'd make Apocalypse an intellect character - keep his Strength at 7 and pump is Intellect to 8. But he's a major villain in the Marvel Universe, definitely deserving on an 8 either way.
My alternate for the Eternal Might special was another OPD - Acts as a level 8 Any Power card, may be used to attack or defend. Discard to Power pack if defended or used to defend.
Ultimately, I decided that he needed good non-OPDs.
I'm glad you liked the ideas! I have to be good for something around here. :P
-BBH
I'm not so outraged by Apocaylpse's grid as by his lack of usable specials. Sure I can see arguments for moving any of his stats up a point but they are not outrageous where they are.
I too did Apocalypse homemades however to boost him.
The Twelve - Acts as a level 12 Energy attack. If successful Apocalypse or Apocalypse's teammates may not defend Apocalypse with Special cards for remainder of game. (OPD)
Horsemen of Apocalypse - Target Teammate's Energy, Fighting and Strength Powercard attacks are +1 for remainder of game. Intellect grid is reduced by half for remainder of game. May be played from Reserve. (OPD)
Pestilence - Play on target character as an attack. Attacks made on target character, including Pestilence, may not be shifted for remainder of game.
War - Opponent must discard one placed card of Apocalypse's choice.
Famine - Target Homebase must discard all placed cards and loses inherent ability for remainder of battle.
Death - Acts as a Level 6 Fighting Attack. If successful, Opponent is –4 to Venture.
QuotePestilence - Play on target character as an attack. Attacks made on target character, including Pestilence, may not be shifted for remainder of game.
War - Opponent must discard one placed card of Apocalypse's choice.
Famine - Target Homebase must discard all placed cards and loses inherent ability for remainder of battle.
Death - Acts as a Level 6 Fighting Attack. If successful, Opponent is –4 to Venture.
These ^ are perfect!
Quote from: BigBadHarve on December 02, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
I agree. 23 points, no 8 and mostly lousy cards.
Still, he can be made to work. I use him from time to time, primarily as a deckbuilding challenge to myself, but I still do it! ;)
I had thoughts about upgrading him... I think I may have gone a little overboard... but I stand by my assessment given how powerful he is in the comics. :D
Apocalypse: Age of Apocalypse
E -6
F -7
S -8
I - 7
New specials -
Evil incarnate - One Per Deck - negate the effect of any one special played by opponent. Apocalypse may discard this card to the top of the draw pile after use.
Eternal Might - Acts as a level 8 Anypower attack.
Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.
What do you think - too much? Not enough? :P
-BBH
Yeah, Apocalypse should be super powerful. Maybe with this build he could have an inherent ability like "May not have a reserve character."
Quote from: The Dude on January 04, 2011, 12:48:32 PMHorsemen of Apocalypse - Target Teammate's Energy, Fighting and Strength Powercard attacks are +1 for remainder of game. Intellect grid is reduced by half for remainder of game. May be played from Reserve. (OPD)
That's a great special (as are your others). But, I kind of like BBH's ridiculous grid, so I would combine his grid with this special, and make this non-OPD. At some point, you could have your three 16's up front and boosted with killer Apoc chillin in reserve >:D Rhino, Xaos, X-babies with Apoc in reserve = win.
You forgot to give him "Apocalypse or teammate may avoid an attack of 9 or less" IMO.
I always liked the fact that Apocalypse has both types of AC specials. I also think teammate 9 or less avoids are funny because there are also "Teammate may avoid 1 attack." That's better, so why be impressed by 9 or less?
If Apocalypse was as powerful in this game as he is in the comics or even the cartoon, he would be able to fight a whole team by himself. And win a lot.
Quote from: Palatinus on April 08, 2011, 06:38:26 PM
I always liked the fact that Apocalypse has both types of AC specials. I also think teammate 9 or less avoids are funny because there are also "Teammate may avoid 1 attack." That's better, so why be impressed by 9 or less?
In looking at Bios cards I always thought that's the point from a game balance/mechanics perspective. Since you're getting wider tactical use out of the card for defense of the the character
or a teammate, the 9 or less avoid is less powerful than all out "avoid 1 attack/numerical attack" to compensate. I'm just guessing at that however.
Quote from: Palatinus on April 08, 2011, 06:38:26 PM
If Apocalypse was as powerful in this game as he is in the comics or even the cartoon, he would be able to fight a whole team by himself. And win a lot.
There's the limits of the ccg. Perhaps a BS or CG special helps...
I've personally always liked Apoc, and though not a great threat in OP, being an original set villain, (::cough cough DR.DOOM cough cough::) he wasn't overlooked in every card game. In the VS system, seeing Apoc on the other side of the table ment BIG TROUBLE for you if you didn't have any tricks to counter-act his (and said tricks were very few and far between.) The man did wreck a meta much in the same way Maruaders/X-Babies did. For a time, almost every deck worth it's salt had Apoc in their deck... just in case.
Back to OP, His specials, before errata/meta rulings, weren't so bad. Being able to play the specials of ANY FALLEN TEAMMATE for a battle is awesome and worthy of one of the greatest villians to walk the Marvel Universe. Being forced to decide WHICH 1 TEAMMATE he could copy the turn beforehand and then HOPE you got something useful NEXT hand was a major slap in the face. Yeah, even the way it's worded, you MIGHT NOT get anything next hand that he can use, but without the ruling which changed how it's played, it would be considered a worthwhile option. Megamorph is a solid 9F, can't go wrong there. Dual AC's can really screw with your opponent in an ALMOST vertigo-ish way. AE's are always fun, if not overly practical... I've always been a fan of them anyways. The ability to shut down your opponents grid is nice, more so if you get to CHOOSE which grid you are shutting down, not to mention with Apoc's BD, the target character can't attack OR defend with cards that utelize that skill type (a.k.a. contains {x} icon.) IF Cyclops can't use energy cards, that Remove Visor that's stuck in your hand cause you placed your Battle Savvy a round earlier is toast, as is the 7E that you would have combined it with, cause he can't defend himself with that either.
Does he have a lot of VENTURE affecting specials? No, not really. He DID have some good specials before the powers that be decided that he/they needed nerfing (directly or indirectly.) I wouldn't say he's my top 23 point choice, but I also have not snubbed him outright either. There are many characters who are WAY WAY worse. A Merciless Conqueror or Cannon Fodder style special would also do him well, but I wouldn't say he's worthless.
I think, ultimately, you have to look at WHY you are selecting your characters. Are you looking to build the Be-all-end-all deck of OP? It's been done. Marauders/X-Babies held that spot for far too long, which also inspired that crappy Dead is Dead rule. If you are looking to build fun decks that utelize your faveorite characters, try them out. Put at least 1 of each of their specials into a deck and actually FIND OUT which cards are worth leaving in and which cards are too situational to rely on. Tourney Apoc is probably going to remain a VS system thing, but that doesn't mean you can't use him in your fun decks, especially since any tourneys out there are pretty much exclusively between all of us at this point. How many times do you want to sit down across from Spawn, Marauders, X-Babies, Beast, ect, ect...
If everyone used the lesser known characters a few things would happen
1. There would be a few surprises played on both sides of the field. (We all know what to expect from Scarlet Witch, but if you saw Carnage on the other side, you'd be wracking your brains to remember if he's a threat or not.)
2. Everyone might enjoy the game a little more, due to trying new things and not getting STOMPED by the monsters that have been established more then a decade ago.
3. We all might realize that, where yes, homemades can be fun and kewl, we might discover NEW strategies that were never tested properly all those years ago, because some cheap, gimicky characters rose to the top far too quickly.
You never know... You might find Apoc isn't so bad after all, even if the rules/restrictions of OP kinda knocked him from the pedistal where he should reside.
Side note, I DO like the 4 Horesemen homemades. Nice touch for a deserving villain.
MetaPhysist: glad you liked that special. When I designed it I liked it a lot beacuse to me it captures the thing from a comic perspective that I most remember about Apocalypse (i.e. grabbing some low-powered loser hero like Angel or Caliban and turning him into a brainwashed power house) while also filling a major game weakness of Apocalypse, namely being 23 points and hard to build around by bumping up the grid of one his low cost teammates.
Quote from: BigBadHarve on December 02, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.
What do you think - too much? Not enough? :P
-BBH
too much (+6 to venture) :P
apocalypse (insert) reads 5378
Quote from: BigBadHarve on December 02, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
I agree. 23 points, no 8 and mostly lousy cards.
Still, he can be made to work. I use him from time to time, primarily as a deckbuilding challenge to myself, but I still do it! ;)
I had thoughts about upgrading him... I think I may have gone a little overboard... but I stand by my assessment given how powerful he is in the comics. :D
Apocalypse: Age of Apocalypse
E -6
F -7
S -8
I - 7
New specials -
Evil incarnate - One Per Deck - negate the effect of any one special played by opponent. Apocalypse may discard this card to the top of the draw pile after use.
Eternal Might - Acts as a level 8 Anypower attack.
Techno-Virus Upgrade - One Per Deck - Play during battle. For the remainder of the game. Any successful level 1 or 2 power card hit against opponent is +6 to venture.
What do you think - too much? Not enough? :P
-BBH
I really like where you were going with some of these special ideas that you had. Have you made homemades of any of them yet? or the character card upgrade? I've actually got an Apoc AoA that I worked on awhile back - if I can find it I will load it in the customs.....
This is slowly becoming a custom card discussion, but I was recently thinking about this, too. Apocalypse has three specials with "Battle" effects:
(http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/74.png) (http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/75.png) (http://overpower.ca/cards/specials/76.png)
I was thinking of an OPD special that would read something like: All Apocalypse specials that last the duration of a battle now last for the remainder of the game. This special remains in effect until Apocalypse is KO'd or it is negated. My name for it was "Age of Apocalypse."
It'd be a little cumbersome to need a card to make some of his other cards effective, but his BD special would be a a real killer. You'd really need to protect Apocalypse to get the full value, but his AC would help that. This would also become a powerful OPD from a Battlesite.
EDIT: I made an edit to the special text. The duration of this special would basically just release the BD effect if Apocalypse is KO'd. The other two specials would obviously not have lasting effects once Apocalypse was KO'd anyway.
Alternatively, I also thought a similarly named "Age of Apocalypse" special could be added like Spider-Man's "With Great Power..." but it's kind of nice for Marvel's flagship character to have a unique, powerful card.
that's a unique one...i like it!
Quote from: breadmaster on March 30, 2012, 04:50:22 PM
that's a unique one...i like it!
I agree - it is hugely unique! If you're up for the mod I'd go for it b/c having an additional card that could help Apoc is a great thing for him.
Quote from: mattkoz on March 30, 2012, 04:34:11 PMI was thinking of an OPD special that would read something like: All Apocalypse specials that last the duration of a battle now last for the remainder of the game. This special remains in effect until Apocalypse is KO'd or it is negated. My name for it was "Age of Apocalypse."
This card is GREAT! I like the effect, the name is perfect, and the effect, while quite powerful, will be difficult to get into play, but not impossible (cumbersome maybe, but appropriately). Good work!
Quote from: mattkoz on March 30, 2012, 04:34:11 PM
I was thinking of an OPD special that would read something like: All Apocalypse specials that last the duration of a battle now last for the remainder of the game. This special remains in effect until Apocalypse is KO'd or it is negated. My name for it was "Age of Apocalypse."
It'd be a little cumbersome to need a card to make some of his other cards effective, but his BD special would be a a real killer. You'd really need to protect Apocalypse to get the full value, but his AC would help that. This would also become a powerful OPD from a Battlesite.
I realize this is an old topic, but this is overboard. If you change it to "All Apocalypse non-OPD specials..." then I'd be ok, but you're going to gimp someone's grid for the entire game? No.
Imagine playing this card from a battlesite and then using a character that gets +2 to defense for remainder of battle. That becomes remainder of game! Or even worse, what if you played this special from a battlesite onto Maverick or Professor X, then played Freelance Spy or Team Coordination!!! That would be as beast as it gets!!! I'm not sure it would be fair, but it would be fun. What about a BJ special??!!! Play it on Gambit... he could never be attacked for remainder of game... might have to work the kinks out of this one. Maybe print it on the card that it cannot be used from a battlesite?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 15, 2012, 05:12:20 AM
Imagine playing this card from a battlesite and then using a character that gets +2 to defense for remainder of battle. That becomes remainder of game! Or even worse, what if you played this special from a battlesite onto Maverick or Professor X, then played Freelance Spy or Team Coordination!!! That would be as beast as it gets!!! I'm not sure it would be fair, but it would be fun. What about a BJ special??!!! Play it on Gambit... he could never be attacked for remainder of game... might have to work the kinks out of this one. Maybe print it on the card that it cannot be used from a battlesite?
Only if you were the one playing it I assure you. As you said there's no way that special would be allowed from a battlesite. It would cause WAAAYYYY too much potential abuse. Besides the ones you mentioned I'll give you a few more insane combinations.
Blind man's Bluff
The Mr. Sinister Special where you have to play open handed
Spider-Web
VERTIGO!
...yeah that would just be stupid.
Quote from: Hotobu on December 15, 2012, 05:27:58 AM
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 15, 2012, 05:12:20 AM
Imagine playing this card from a battlesite and then using a character that gets +2 to defense for remainder of battle. That becomes remainder of game! Or even worse, what if you played this special from a battlesite onto Maverick or Professor X, then played Freelance Spy or Team Coordination!!! That would be as beast as it gets!!! I'm not sure it would be fair, but it would be fun. What about a BJ special??!!! Play it on Gambit... he could never be attacked for remainder of game... might have to work the kinks out of this one. Maybe print it on the card that it cannot be used from a battlesite?
Only if you were the one playing it I assure you. As you said there's no way that special would be allowed from a battlesite. It would cause WAAAYYYY too much potential abuse. Besides the ones you mentioned I'll give you a few more insane combinations.
Blind man's Bluff
The Mr. Sinister Special where you have to play open handed
Spider-Web
VERTIGO!
...yeah that would just be stupid.
Strong observation. I hadn't thought of these kinds of effects.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zs11W1-0efY/UKvM51uTSTI/AAAAAAAAHCI/AM5hrrZFUz8/s1600/cat-boy-that-escalated-quickly.jpg)
Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 18, 2012, 12:55:48 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Zs11W1-0efY/UKvM51uTSTI/AAAAAAAAHCI/AM5hrrZFUz8/s1600/cat-boy-that-escalated-quickly.jpg)
LOL
i was readingthe thread about the new card to make frob->frog. i was like yeah thats cool! then the next posts were HERE IS HOW YOU CAN ABUSE IT! CHARM! VERTIGO! then i was like holy shit guys!
how about if it makes non-OPDs FROG?
I think that would work, but there's still the battlesite abuse issue... I think the special might have to read that its unable to be played from a battlesite.
play when apocalypse wins the venture. makes all apoc non-opd cards that affect frob will now affect frog. discard when apoc's team loses venture.
If you discard it when apocalypse loses venture, then it might be okay to let it affect his OPD's, but I still think the battlesite issue will come up. Hold down specials like Iron Curtain and such might take strong advantage of it. I'm not sure if it will be an overpowerd advantage... someone should test it out and see how it plays! 8)
how about if it is played as an event?
play when drawn, target's non-opd cards that contain the text "frob" now contain the text "frog". discard when apoc's team loses venture. OPD
so it can not be used via battlesite.
Quote from: BasiliskFang on December 24, 2012, 05:05:32 AM
how about if it is played as an event?
play when drawn, target's non-opd cards that contain the text "frob" now contain the text "frog". discard when apoc's team loses venture. OPD
so it can not be used via battlesite.
I think the Venture clause could be good enough...
hey, what about this:
"Play on target Special to change effect from "remainder of Battle" to "remainder of Game."
this would limit a TON of abuse, but still give opportunity for a unique and powerful effect.
thoughts?
So what does the card say now?
With any combination of the suggested amendments it's still very abusable. First off it'd have to be limited to OPDs because of the cards I suggested before. Even being tasked with having to win a venture and keeping it to non-OPDs it'd still be too strong because there are some good cards whose effects only last for a battle that if carried over to another battle could be game breaking. Here's a few scenarios.
Apocalypse and Beast are the last two characters left. Beast plays Acrobatics. Apocalypse plays suggested special. Apocalypse dies, and Beast manages to win the Venture. With the way people's decks are constructed the only attacks Beast can now be hit with are Teamworks. It's possible the other player can go several hands without a teamwork (IF he's got any left), or in the worst case the opponent only has one character left, making Beast invincible for the remainder of the game.
Vertigo is still a huge reason that this would be broken.
Iceman's Snowblind, or any defense lowering special.
AX specials when the opponent only has one character left.
A DZ special to force a stalemate.
There's probably a few others that'd be crazy too.
"For remainder of game, the duration of Apocalypse's non-OPD specials is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. This special may not be played from a battlesite." OPD.
Maybe the wording could be shortened, but I think this keeps it to Apocalypse only, preventing abuse. None of his nonOPD's are particularly broken even with this special, in my opinion. Coupled with a new grid, maybe a good inherent ability, and the event special being tweaked, Apocalypse might find his place in a deck or two. I would play him in reserve just because he's cool if he had an 8 Intellect. 8)
I also considered that Apocalypse never really dies. So maybe he could have a special that moves him to the reserve when he's ko'd. I know this could be abused by ko events and such, but I'm sure we could work out the kinks to give him a res special that wouldn't be abused. Just a thought... if you guys don't wanna go there for the Ultimate Evils set, that's cool.
damn, its not like one special is gonna make him god of the game.
This is true BFang... but I think it's the battlesite abuse that's causing the dilemma, big brother. :-\ I just reconsidered the way I worded it, and to be honest, I'm not sure that's even good enough, because Apocalypse himself can abuse other specials activated to him from battlesites. Making the special usable with specials other than Apocalypse opens up the door to lots of nasty combos... I think the card needs to be tested to validate its usage and the restrictions it needs. Against a fun deck of random cool characters with jank specials, it might be a powerhouse. But against a tuned tournament deck with negates and KL's, it might not be as bad as it seems. I'm not the best person to think of hypotheticals, but this is where I stand with it. I like the idea of the card, but the key is going to be limiting it to Apocalypse specials.
Wait... i just had a great idea...
How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card! We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:
(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD
It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!! And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card. This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma). :P
If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 25, 2012, 11:25:41 PM
This is true BFang... but I think it's the battlesite abuse that's causing the dilemma, big brother. :-\ I just reconsidered the way I worded it, and to be honest, I'm not sure that's even good enough, because Apocalypse himself can abuse other specials activated to him from battlesites. Making the special usable with specials other than Apocalypse opens up the door to lots of nasty combos... I think the card needs to be tested to validate its usage and the restrictions it needs. Against a fun deck of random cool characters with jank specials, it might be a powerhouse. But against a tuned tournament deck with negates and KL's, it might not be as bad as it seems. I'm not the best person to think of hypotheticals, but this is where I stand with it. I like the idea of the card, but the key is going to be limiting it to Apocalypse specials.
Wait... i just had a great idea...
How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card! We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:
(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD
It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!! And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card. This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma). :P
If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...
I feel kinda dumb that I never even considered
naming the Specials that would become FROG! Also, yes, this would be a great way to give him a
pair of complementary Specials for this set!
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 25, 2012, 11:25:41 PM
Wait... i just had a great idea...
How about we just NAME the specials to be rendered remainder of game on the card! We could come up with a good remainder of battle special that Apocalypse can use to go along with it in ultimate evil, then make a OPD card that reads:
(Title) - "The duration of Apocalypse specials named "Enhance Strength", "Instant Evolution", and "such and such" is changed from remainder of battle to remainder of game. OPD
It could be negated, it couldn't be abused by a battlesite, and it would still accomplish the initial intended effect suggested!!! And if anyone ever decides to make other Apocalypse specials to play in the future beyond Ultimate Evil, they won't be affected by this card. This might be my one genius moment (slaps OP diploma). :P
If anyone agrees, the dilemma NOW would be trying to decide what kind of cool remainder of battle special we could make to include on the OPD that will be awesome without being broken...
im cool with that
change both of the above to OPD
Why not just get rid of the idea of the special all together and give him an inherent that makes those cards last for the remainder of the game?
This makes far more sense from a game design standpoint for a multitude of reasons.
Like a variant character card?
Yeah... I think someonementioned Apocalypse should have an 8 Intellect, and I agree. But we should drop his strength.
Give him the inherent, and another good special. I also think we should discuss further making an any aspect KL of some kind. Being able to play any ko'd teammate's specials is gonna rock pretty hard. Not just for Apocalypse, but at the same time, we could think about making some better specials all around for bad guys with a KL available for every deck.
Quote from: thetrooper27 on December 26, 2012, 07:52:35 AM
Yeah... I think someonementioned Apocalypse should have an 8 Intellect, and I agree. But we should drop his strength.
Give him the inherent, and another good special. I also think we should discuss further making an any aspect KL of some kind. Being able to play any ko'd teammate's specials is gonna rock pretty hard. Not just for Apocalypse, but at the same time, we could think about making some better specials all around for bad guys with a KL available for every deck.
I disagree about Apocalypse' intellect. I think he's only smart because of his age, but he's not actually inventing or creating much. most of his genetic "research" has been watching humanity or hiring Mr. Sinister (or others). I always thought his 6Int was just about perfect.
also, it seems like an I.A. would be too easy to get these cards as FROG. I mean, at that point you might as well rewrite the Specials. any "weakness" you might get from a printed I.A. seems like it'd be lost from the boon of having non-OPD FROG effects. his AY, for example, should be a OPD if it's FROG...
I think forcing the play of a separate Special keeps a balance on these non-OPD FROBs.
... isn't there some kind of old saying about creating things by committee...? something like, "such-and-such is a horse made by committee..." LOL
A camel is a horse designed by committee
So you like my original idea, ncann, or are you thinking something different altogether? Anyone else? If we aren't changing the grid, we won't need a new character card... which I considered if we made a new one for an official set, the old one would never get used, but I don't really mind that. Did anyone think of another cool nonOPD that we could make for remainder of battle for Apocalypse that the OPD could upgrade? Instant evolution and enhance strength might not be enough for this special to be good. He's gonna need something that he can use that will be beneficial to him in case you don't have the OPD. If you don't have the OPD played before the special cards, they're going to be duds mostly... you might be able to use the 8 strength, and you might play a ko'd teammates specials, but I don't see playing multiples of those cards. The goal is to get the OPD in play to take Apocalypse from ok to awesome. I'm cool with the OPD instead of the I.A. but it's gonna be tough to get it into play in time to make it useful. It will almost require the right events or battlesite specials (thor, ghost rider, banshee, etc.) to work it consistently. I think building Apocalypse up with specials is a cool idea... maybe worth further exploring.
Survival of the Fittest is his gimick. Maybe if you get a certain combination of specials in play, say 3 nonOPD's and the OPD, those 4 specials are discarded, he permanently gains those effects as an I.A., and everyone else is ko'd except apocalypse. This might seem ridiculous (and it very well may be) but I'm proposing that somehow Apocalypse will be the only character in your front line, he can play everyone's specials on his team, and he becomes hard (but not impossible) to ko (say hits to ko becomes 30). This isn't how I would imagine it conclusively, we would have to discuss working out the kinks, but it would be a totally different dynamic for a character, and would hopefully pay off if you could successfully get the combo of specials in play. He's 23 points, and not worth them when Scarlet Witch is 17 and awesome, or Xbabies is 15 and broken.
This might be a stretch. But we've taken this discussion all over the place... why not carry it on a little longer and see what we come up with?
@thetrooper27 - yeah, I much prefer the idea of playing a Special to make these Game-lasting.
also, how about an MP for Apocalypse? make it non-OPD like Psylocke's. it's a great way to weed out a negate before playing all these cards. getting them early is still useful, and gettin 1, 2, or even 3 into play after they are FROG would make Apocalypse a VERY intriguing character. it'd still take a lot of set-up and card DISadvantage to abuse it... thoughts?
I thought the psylocke special kinda sucked, but if you need to get a special off, it doesn't seem so bad. Making that remainder of game with the Apoc OPD would give you reason to play more than one, would make Apoc much stronger, particularly against negate heavy decks, but wouldn't totally break the game. Awaiting feedback. Anxiously. :o
I'm still wondering what to do about drawing the specials early as opposed to AFTER the OPD is played. They kinda suck by themselves, or Apoc would get some playtime already. You would have to play multiples of them to ensure an opportunity to benefit from them. Only the MP (if that's the one everyone decides on) would be worth playing more than one of. And you can only place one card at a time :-\
We should pause to figure out what kind of nonOPD special to make to round out the usage of the OPD. The MP might be a good bet, but its probably gonna hold us back a little bit until we get something in mind. I think we can take the discussion further once we get an idea what the special will ultimately give Apoc.
Quote from: ncannelora on December 26, 2012, 12:46:11 PM
I disagree about Apocalypse' intellect. I think he's only smart because of his age, but he's not actually inventing or creating much. most of his genetic "research" has been watching humanity or hiring Mr. Sinister (or others). I always thought his 6Int was just about perfect.
also, it seems like an I.A. would be too easy to get these cards as FROG. I mean, at that point you might as well rewrite the Specials. any "weakness" you might get from a printed I.A. seems like it'd be lost from the boon of having non-OPD FROG effects. his AY, for example, should be a OPD if it's FROG...
The I.A. making it easy is exactly the point. That's what it should be. Instead of just having the knee-jerk reaction that re-writing specials is bad, think about both alternatives and what's really more useful and realistic from a gameplay standpoint.
Making a special that makes them last for the remainder of the game is a severely unreliable gimmick. First of all the player is looking at about a 1 in 3 chance of getting these specials in the optimum order to begin with. Out of order you're looking at being forced to place and hope that you'll eventually get the proposed special. If the proposed special comes at the end of that order then it completely screws things up. Remember that the CL special can't be played until another character is KO'd; if the Apocalypse player got the AY in round one, then decided to place it, and gets the CL special in round two then the CL special is no good. In addition to this we're talking about 3 specials that may or may not have an effect on the game to begin with, certainly not an immediate one, an specials that take up 3 turns over the course of a game that have to be used to Frankenstein together a flimsy gimmick. Get them together in the same hand and the player has basically lost the venture for that hand, while still having to take at least two turns (assuming they'll place one) to get the effect going, and possibly having to defend 3 times in a row. On top of all this the Apocalypse player has to run the Gambit of cards that get rid of placed cards, and the opponent conceding. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the biggest threat of them all. The negate. One negate completely destroys this strategy. The opponent gets to trade one negate for 3 cards and a strategy which is most likely a big part of whatever deck Apocalypse is in.
All things considered making this a special is completely worthless. I'd say it's a
generous estimate that this strategy would work 1 in 6 times, and that says nothing of how useful it'd even be depending on how the game plays out.
Compare all of these problems to the alternative of him having it as an I.A.
-The order that the specials come in don't matter.
-The AY special never has to be placed, making room for the CL
-One negate doesn't cancel out 3 cards
-One less passive, character specific special.
Nothing about this is overpowered. It's streamlined.
As for Apocalypse only having a 6I... usually I don't get into the "who can beat whom" because it's a really quick way to rot brain cells, but let's look at some 6Is and some 7s
6s
Captain America, Black Widow, Daredevil, Mojo, and Moleman
7s
Beast, Leader, Donald Pierce, Black King, Red Skull
Do you really think he belongs in group 1 and not at least in group 2?
First, I know it's a bit of a gamble and it'd be difficult to get these cards into play perfectly, but I don't think it should be easy to have effects like a CL card last a whole game.
Second, I know a negate would shut this down, that's why I think an MP-Special is a great complement. Also, this would give an incredible potential, having 2 or 3 MP Specials in play for an entire game.
Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.
Should we continue with this idea, or scrap it and find something new? 2 new specials could really put him in some decks, even at 23 points. That's the toughest part of playing him now. He would fit in reserve, but he eats too many points and you're left with no one to play frontline.
How about a negate, and something else. I was thinking how Techno Virus might be cool if it actually did something. How about something like a non OPD level 5 anypower that at the time its successful, if opponent has a level one or two value power card hit, he's ko'd. A five is easy to block, it's always a 5 for venture, so its not useless, but if you happen to have the virus working, or even if they just have a 1 or 2 power card hit on their record it has a special benefit. If this seems powerful, we could limit the negate, something like Morbius' ED. That way he doesn't have a full negate, but he could negate his own techno virus, making the ones and twos count for spectrum.
Since it's Ultimate Evil, I also think it would be cool to make some other characters like Wolverine: Horseman of Apocalypse, and Hulk: Horseman of Apocalypse, etc. Along with Angel, maybe we could think of a cool special or inherent ability to accomodate a deckbuild with horseman. If nothing else, a Wolverine/Death character card would really float my boat.
As far as the grid goes, if we change it, I think Apocalypse's Intellect could stand at least a one point boost.
Here's a reference: http://marvel.com/universe/Apocalypse_(En_Sabah_Nur)
Check it out and see what you guys think. The only part I disagree with is a part in the powers section where it says his strength could rival Hulk's. No one's strength Rival's Hulk's. He's undisputed since WWHulk. :P But it's Marvel's site, so I guess I really can't argue.
Sinister has an 8, and he should be a little closer to him, even if Sinister might be a tad more intelligent. Apocalypse is a couple 1000 years old... and though Apocalypse gets outsmarted by the XMEN alot, I think in terms of genetics and technology, he's probably better than a 6. Compared to the list Hotobu provided, I would agree that he's probably a cut above those guys. Maybe not in the battle strategy department, but in terms of sheer intelligence. I proposed an 8 initially, but I think a 7 would do him justice if we are looking at changing his grid.
Quote from: ncannelora on December 31, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.
Doesn't he have to be? He's a bad guy so he's going to eventually lose, but he's an
invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.
Quote from: Hotobu on January 02, 2013, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: ncannelora on December 31, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.
Doesn't he have to be? He's a bad guy so he's going to eventually lose, but he's an invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.
Not sure about increasing Apocalypse's intellect stat as its a pretty 'complicated' thing. Its not just sheer smarts, but also includes leadership and impulsiveness for example. We had a good discussion of that in the link below.
http://www.beenhereandthere.com/SMF/custom-cards/stat-grid-definitions/msg10029/#msg10029
I try to remain diplomatic. I don't want to win, or make anyone look dumb, or prove how much I know about anything. I love chatting with you guys, and I wanna see some new cards and mechanics come to the game, and having these debates is a great way to make that happen. But we have to get somewhere. So I'll drop this out there and you guys can piggyback on it.
Apocalypse usually has a grand scheme, not just a battle plan. He doesn't show up like Juggernaut and cause problems, it's usually a "take over the world" kind of gimick. "The Twelve" was meticulous. I don't think Cap, Daredevil, Kingpin, Mojo, or just about any other character with a 6 Int could concoct a scheme of that magnitude... maybe Magneto. Even Sinister with an 8 would have trouble putting that one together (Sinister rules). 8) Apocalypse is thousands of years old and has been to various places in space and time. He never dies. He will conquer a timeline (eventually). He has history with the Celestials. He's a physics/genetics genius, at least to the level of Hank McCoy/Dark Beast (and by this comparison, Iron Man probably needs an 8 Int, and Thor needs an 8 Str). Doctor Doom loses to FF by being outsmarted. If losing is to be a reason to lower an intellect rating, then it would seem any villain with an 8 would need to be adjusted, so maybe we shouldn't take it there. The good guys will ALWAYS win, and that's because they have to, at least in a fictional context that needs to continue from month to month. They must... or there's no story to tell. And I side with good. The leadership quality coming into play could lend to his intellect as well. He's had various associates agree to his plans, and not all because of mind controlling them, as in the case of the Horseman. Apocalypse isn't the most intelligent bad guy in the galaxy. But he's on par with many 7 Int characters, at least that I would say. Some 7's he might even exceed in intellect.
Now, I'm not an expert on all things Apocalypse, or any other character. But I believe it wouldn't be a stretch to see him as a 7. Some could drive the point home that he's an 8 Int. That isn't my goal in this discussion, but I could see that as well and would be satisfied it that were what everyone else wanted to see. If he's to be changed, I think a 7 is a nice compromise.
Maybe as an inherent ability, his Intellect could shoot to 8 if he's the last character on the team, or he could get a +1 bonus to Intellect Power card attacks.
Perhaps keep the same stats and add an inherent that says: Apocalypse intellect is 8 for offense. ;)
There ya go. Perhaps something like that.
Quote from: Hotobu on January 02, 2013, 05:02:59 AM
Quote from: ncannelora on December 31, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
Third, yes. I've never seen anything to really show Apocalypse to have a great intellect. He's quite powerful, in raw power, but his downfall is almost always because he is outsmarted.
... but he's an invincible bad guy. Outsmarting him is basically the only way that he'd ever be unsuccessful.
False.
See, exibit A:
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc422/ncannelora/AoA_zps5d727b28.png)
Look, I'm not saying he's dumb, I'm just saying I think a lot of people give him too much credit.
Seriously, though, in the end, all of these ratings have the same problem: Standard. There is no standard, because you have dozens of writers over a period of decades, changing how powerful characters are, relative to others and even relative to themselves/history.
Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!). How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG. Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials. He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special. I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck. Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy. He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special.
Maybe we don't need to invent anything new. What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?" Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ. Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ. Maybe he could use a card like an EK. There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 05, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!). How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG. Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials. He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special. I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck. Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy. He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special.
Maybe we don't need to invent anything new. What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?" Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ. Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ. Maybe he could use a card like an EK. There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.
it's the end of the original AoA.
I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.
I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?
Quote from: ncannelora on January 05, 2013, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 05, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!). How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG. Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials. He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special. I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck. Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy. He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special.
Maybe we don't need to invent anything new. What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?" Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ. Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ. Maybe he could use a card like an EK. There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.
it's the end of the original AoA.
I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.
I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?
I think a EJ like Doc Oc's yet playable from reserve due to an I.A. like Hawkeye would be appropriate.
Quote from: Nostalgic on January 05, 2013, 02:43:47 PM
Quote from: ncannelora on January 05, 2013, 01:31:06 PM
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 05, 2013, 12:22:51 AM
Very good point Mr. Cannelora (hey what comic was that shot from?!). How about we just all agree that we should just make him... STRONG. Not broken with the best grid, but have him live up to his credentials. He doesn't have to be the best character, but he's a signature XMEN villain, makes for great stories, and deserves one more great special. I really like him, and just want to see him good enough to fit in a deck. Any 23 point character should have something great to offer a deck strategy. He could find his place nicely in many decks with but one strong special, and maybe another good playable special.
Maybe we don't need to invent anything new. What are some good specials out there, say in the DC sets or Image sets, that don't seem to get much playtime, but you look at them and think "man, I wanna play this character because of this awesome special?" Or maybe something that just is always good, like HQ, GL, JA, or BQ. Round him out with a decent defensive card, or maybe something like an NZ. Maybe he could use a card like an EK. There are lots of options that would make him a STRONG contender.
it's the end of the original AoA.
I agree, he needs something that sets him apart from other, cheaper S/I options.
I think his Grid lends itself to Reserve... what about the MZ (code?) from Velocity?
I think a EJ like Doc Oc's yet playable from reserve due to an I.A. like Hawkeye would be appropriate.
I'd be reluctant to give a max-23 any kind of positive I.A.. why not just print it to the Special? It's not like that'd really change it's use from a Battlesite...
Is an EJ good enough to get Apocalypse into some decks? I like EJ's, but how potent are they? They're way easy to block... I think he needs an offensive special, an this one will be fine, but I would like to see him have some utility as well if we're trying to keep him in reserve. The AI from reserve would be good, as well. Will that be too much?
Quote from: thetrooper27 on January 06, 2013, 12:15:36 AM
... Will that be too much?
I really don't think so...
again, MZ-code though, right? so the "from Reserve" is printed on the Special...?
Yeah, MZ. Sorry.
So the EJ playable from reserve, and the MZ. Anyone else wanna weigh in???