Palatinus' OverPower Forum

Telepathic Coordination is my favorite card in the game, but it's not even close to being as good as a Draw 3. Telepathic Coordination has no tangible effect on the current venture, so it can't be seen as a venture winning OPD. The HQ doesn't scale with anything about the game state other than how many unusable cards you have left in your deck. If your deck is well constructed, the HQ is going to be worth at least 15 points of venture. The BG can only impact the current turn's venture by killing a character with placed cards or with special cards still in hand. This is difficult to accomplish, and even when it happens the HQ usually still has a larger impact on the current turn's venture. The BG usually effects venture in two ways: a) forcing an opponent to concede to keep a character alive, or b) KOing a character and gaining future card advantage due to unusable discards. Those are both good outcomes, but neither of them help you in any of the following situations:

1- On the opening turn, Telepathic Coordination is essentially a free card for your opponent. Even with the +2 bonus, seven cards against eight is not going to pose a KO threat unless your hand is all attacks.

2- On a turn where the opponent bet for the win, Telepathc Coordination is again a free card for the opponent. Losing characters means nothing on the final turn of the game, so a lot of your +2 attacks that are harder to defend would have actually landed anyway. Meanwhile, Telepathic Coordination is adding nothing to venture compared to their card X. If card X was an HQ, the hand would be a total blowout.

There are more defensive decks than offensive decks, so in general Telepathic Coordination is hard to maximize. If we both have 10 cards and I see that you have a Telepathic Coordination placed, I can freely bet an extra mission and not worry too much about it. If I am going first, that's even more of an advantage against Telepathic Coordination. If I have a "get off me" effect from the battlesite, once again I can count your Telepathic Coordination as a dead card to venture.

Since it is such a unique effect, it is hard to account for its overall impact on a match. It's extremely powerful when it works properly, but it is highly dependent on the game state. Meanwhile, an HQ is good in any situation - it helps you bet for the win, it helps you survive against an opponent who bet for the win, it's good even if you're going second, it's good on the opening turn of the game, it's good even if the rest of your hand doesn't have a lot of attacks, etc.

i agree 8s are important, but from what i've seen, specials are far and away the most important thing when picking a character

in fact, i'd even put inherent ability above an 8 stat

I disagree about the BG not being tangible for calculating venture. If I have a BG, then I can count almost all of my Power cards as +2 to Venture, because I can block down. You attack me with a 4, and I block it with a 2, that means I've gained 2 venture points. The fact that I can get BG into play on a defensive action, means that it cannot be negated either, unlike the HQ.

Also, even the most well constructed deck is going to have times where a HQ pulls unusable cards, or marginally useful cards. Saying that you can count on 15 points of venture from a HQ seems like over-confidence in the most classic sense.

I'm not saying BG>HQ. I'm not even saying the BG=HQ. I'm just saying depending on a lot of factors, they are close.

Quote from: breadmaster on October 03, 2011, 05:45:54 PM
in fact, i'd even put inherent ability above an 8 stat

Even the best inherent ability in the game (Invisible Woman) doesn't even come close to the added value of an 8 stat character.

And to the point about picking a character based on special cards, well a lot of 8 stat characters have above average special cards too. An 8 stat character with average special cards is better than a non-8 stat character with amazing special cards. An 8-stat character with good special cards is the most valuable thing in the game unless your deck has a very specific gimmick.

QuoteIf I have a BG, then I can count almost all of my Power cards as +2 to Venture, because I can block down. You attack me with a 4, and I block it with a 2, that means I've gained 2 venture points.

This is false, because blocking is a zero sum game. Unless your deck is positioned to trade hits and has a hand of almost entirely offense, that trade up blocking will never factor into the way the venture points for the turn play out.

QuoteThe fact that I can get BG into play on a defensive action, means that it cannot be negated either, unlike the HQ.

This doesn't outweigh the fact that the BG is bad on the first turn, mostly irrelevant on the final turn, and potentially irrelevant on other defensive turns. If a game lasts 4 hands, then the BG is bad 50% of the time. Of course you can construct your deck in a way to try to make the game last longer than four turns, but in the average match the BG is not impacting venture.

QuoteAlso, even the most well constructed deck is going to have times where a HQ pulls unusable cards, or marginally useful cards. Saying that you can count on 15 points of venture from a HQ seems like over-confidence in the most classic sense.

A well made deck dupes at roughly a 1:9 ratio. Most decks have an average of around 5.9 venture per card. If you are playing the HQ as late as possible, it's always going to be gaining more venture than any other card in the game. On top of this, you can keep characters alive longer, threaten more KOs, etc. Even if the HQ draws 2 dupes, the ~6 that it will add to venture is more relevant in the later stages of the game than the extra offensive pressure provided by the BG. It's not really close at all, even when you base an entire deck around maximizing the Telepathic Coordination turn.

if 8s are more important, than a deck built around them should beat a deck built around specials, no?

dracula is going to get wiped out by ghost rider every time

Quote from: breadmaster on October 03, 2011, 07:28:53 PM
if 8s are more important, than a deck built around them should beat a deck built around specials, no?

Every deck in the game is built around specials.  A deck built around specials with an 8 stat character is going to have a huge advantage against a deck built around specials without an 8 stat character, it's just that simple. That's why your example of Dracula is poor - he has no playable specials. A better comparison would be Ghost Rider vs. Spawn for their similar costs/multi-stats.

Like I've said three times now in this thread, there are very specific lineups that have an interaction of unique special cards that can make the deck as powerful as a team with an 8 stat character. Those are few and far between.

i'd say my example is not poor

by taking someone like spawn, you're hedging and taking a character with good specials

ghost rider is max 6, with great specials (as far away from 8 as you can get without using xbabies)

dracula is 8, with crap specials

therefore, a team of 4 ghost riders with unique specials against a team of 4 draculas with unique specials would be the ultimate test of your theory that an 8 is more important than specials

What does that have to do with Overpower, at all? Spawn is a good 8 stat character, but we should use an unplayable character as a basis of comparison because he might not be good in some theoretical four Dracula vs. four Ghost Rider format?

Even then, your scenario doesn't support your position at all. The four Dracula deck would destroy the four Ghost Rider deck, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. For an example of what that match would play out like, look at a Mission Control era matchup of an energy deck vs. a strength deck.

The math suggests that eight stats add an insane amount of tangible venture advantage (as well as incalculable advantages from level 10 teamwork followups). My personal anecdotal evidence over the last fifteen years agrees with that notion. Objective historical tournament data with >30 participants backs this up. In order to refute these things, you'll have to provide more substance to your opinion than "yea but Dracula sucks."

I don't care how terrible his specials are, I love Dracula in Overpower!  But yeah, he's unplayable if you actually want to win . . .

I think Onslaught has made a very cogent analysis on the value of 8-stat characters.  I completely agree and think that the depth of his analysis is excellent.  Also, he has taken into account the exclusion of an 8-stat character in favor of a deck that is built to gain the same benefits through a different means.

I think the question of who the best character is is really interesting.  As ncann has pointed out, your favorite character is probably the best character because you get so much joy out of playing that character.  On the other hand, Mr. F and Prof. X are terrific.  I don't have an IQ Mr. Fantastic, so I vote for Professor X.  That way I can feel a little happier about it.

Quote from: Onslaught on October 03, 2011, 09:01:34 PM
What does that have to do with Overpower, at all? Spawn is a good 8 stat character, but we should use an unplayable character as a basis of comparison because he might not be good in some theoretical four Dracula vs. four Ghost Rider format?

Even then, your scenario doesn't support your position at all. The four Dracula deck would destroy the four Ghost Rider deck, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. For an example of what that match would play out like, look at a Mission Control era matchup of an energy deck vs. a strength deck.

The math suggests that eight stats add an insane amount of tangible venture advantage (as well as incalculable advantages from level 10 teamwork followups). My personal anecdotal evidence over the last fifteen years agrees with that notion. Objective historical tournament data with >30 participants backs this up. In order to refute these things, you'll have to provide more substance to your opinion than "yea but Dracula sucks."

Quote
1. Donald Pierce
2. H4H
3. Scarlet Witch
4. X-Man
5. Starjammers
6. Spawn
7. Professor X
8. Mr. Fantastic
9. Reavers
10. Beyonder

How are X-Babies not on your list?  They have a negate, and one of the top 5 cards in the game? 

very interesting thread!

i use dracula and ghost rider, because they are the two extremes

one has great specials, but not so great stats, the other has great stats, and lousy specials

if you want to compare the value of specials vs a character with an 8, you CAN'T use an 8 who has good specials.  you have to isolate the things you are comparing.

and do you really think 4 draculas would beat 4 ghost riders?  that's just madness

didn't BBHs team and mine in the last tournament show that specials trump the power characters?

Quote from: breadmaster on October 03, 2011, 10:24:27 PM
and do you really think 4 draculas would beat 4 ghost riders?  that's just madness

Anyone who played the game during Mission Control can tell you that the Dracula team would dominate. It's acutally "madness" to think otherwise.

They would have equal access to the pool of: Any Hero/battlesite cards, allies, level 1-6 powercards, events, etc. So we'll consider them to cross cancel each other out.

The Ghost Rider deck would have: 6E TWs, 6S TWs, 6F TWs, Penance Stare, 8M, 6E AR specials probably x2 or 3 just to get to 56 cards, and some AIs.

The Dracula would have: 8I TWs, 7I TWs, 6I TWs, 6S TWs, 8i powercards, 7i powercards, and maybe some of his 5e special.

I can't predict the exact numbers, but to get to 56 it would probably be 3 or 4 copies of most good non OPD cards. Going by that, the unique cards of the Ghost Rider team average around 6.375 points of venture over 15 cards while the Dracula team would have an average of 6.6 over 20 cards. This means the Dracula deck has consistently higher venture while also having lower duplicates. Blocking in this ridiculous theoretical matchup would be pointless, so pretty much the higher raw number would win the majority of the time. There's no more need for discussion of this imagined matchup anymore, especially since it was based on a faulty comparison in the first place.

Quotedidn't BBHs team and mine in the last tournament show that specials trump the power characters?

No, nothing is ever proved by such an insignificant sample size. Variance from a handful of matches tells you nothing about statistical truths. Plus, those decks only faced off in the finals because the other two top 4 decks (both featuring 8 stat characters) were disqualified due to factors that have nothing to do with gameplay.

I'm not going to debate this point anymore, because you've provided nothing to back up your statements and it's starting to get tedious.

10 people playing each other once is an insignificant sample size?

edit:

also, the ghost rider deck would NOT have 1 of each of those specials.  they would have 3.  plus a opd for reserve ghost rider.

plus the marvels draw 3s

each ghost rider special is unique to one of the ghost riders. (ie: ghost rider alpha, ghost rider beta etc)

Quote from: a_noble_kaz on October 03, 2011, 02:46:28 PM

shame the profs i a  isnt to play that from rerserve