when is a discard NOT a discard?

[AO user]

In the "card Combo's" general discussion thread, I was curious about how many cards let you do something worthwhile with duplicates or 'unusables'.  Purity of Thought (HM) lets you hold and then discard these cards into the battle THEN discard and draw...or at least that's how I've seen it played.  Can Combat Ready (EF) let you hold and THEN discard cards as not usable by him ?   And Tussin's ingenious way of avoiding the text on Grifter's MN:  Trickster has opponent play it from Trickster's hand:                            If grifter was already KO'd.  if his 12 shows up in same hand as Trickster's opd, does that mean you can KEEP grifter card AS usable since having in your hand and YOU don't play it, it doesn't qualify as a discard?   here's reaching....

[BigBadHarve]

Any card that is duplicate or unusable during the discard phase must be discarded.

You may only keep unusables IF you have the direct means to make them usable. So a dead teamwork in your hand (and nowhere to place it) can only be kept if you have another card that allows you to fetch a power card. Note, a regular draw 3 wouldn't qualify as the result is random and may not yield a power card.

IE - if you have Bullseye's 'Everything's a Weapon' available to you in hand or placed and playable... then you may keep otherwise unusable offensive specials because that card allows you to attack with them.

Hawkeye's combat ready does NOT allow you to keep unusables because in playing it you are not making the card usable, you are simply pitching it. But if a card becomes unusable during the course of battle, you don't have to immediately get rid of it and can be used with combat ready.

Purity of Thought also doesn't allow you to keep unusables, but it does allow you to draw for any discard you've had over the course of a battle. You have to keep track of them as you go.

[AO user]

So purity of thought is  best after power leech?  When an opponent used it against me they discarded 4 placed cards and 2 from hand.  They weren't  discarded due to my action.  He discarded them  in order to re-draw.  Was that an error?  And to the previous question  if shell game is in hand does that make grifter's 12 usable like everything's a weapon?

[BigBadHarve]

So purity of thought is  best after power leech?  When an opponent used it against me they discarded 4 placed cards and 2 from hand.  They weren't  discarded due to my action.  He discarded them  in order to re-draw.  Was that an error?  And to the previous question  if shell game is in hand does that make grifter's 12 usable like everything's a weapon?

Yes, purity of thought is great when someone has leeched you. Based on your example, your opponent used it incorrectly. He doesn't get to discard in order to draw, he gets to draw for every discard he has already had up to that point. So, if he pitched two cards during discard phase, then you leech him for 4, and he plays purity of thought, he will draw 6 cards.

I'm not 100% on what would happen with Grifter's 12... because the draw is random I think not... but I might be wrong. It's a unique case.

[chuu]

if i played shell game, i would play it second last, so the last card in my hand is the card I want my opponent to get hit by...

[AO user]

....so does that mean you can keep the 12 because shell game makes it 'usable' even though Grifter is KO'd?

[BigBadHarve]

....so does that mean you can keep the 12 because shell game makes it 'usable' even though Grifter is KO'd?

I would lean towards yes on this one. If anyone has anything that says otherwise, speak now for forever hold your peace.

[breadmaster]

now one just has to figure out how to get grifter and trickster on a team, and still manage to win a few...

[Tussin]

i can't resist a good pun. it will be tricky to get them on a team to win ^^^

Grifter    4-7-4-4 (19)
Trickster 6-5-1-7 (19)

so first off you could try to theme it around a Fighting or Intellect deck... and probably people with BQ special that can retrieve specials for this or other good combos with Trickster.


they have natural synergy as well, this can help get Grifter's hits past 15 to use the special normally too.

which are the better BQ special's again that can retrieve more?

[steve2275]

hawkeye definitely in reserve  and still have 21 to play with

[MHC]

You may only keep unusables IF you have the direct means to make them usable. So a dead teamwork in your hand (and nowhere to place it) can only be kept if you have another card that allows you to fetch a power card. Note, a regular draw 3 wouldn't qualify as the result is random and may not yield a power card.

I was looking at the rules this morning and was confused by something I read related to this.  On Jack's website (http://www.overpower.ca/pages/rules-setting-up.php?#rules-special-discard-rule) the rules section says the following under the "Special Discard Rule":

"A player does not have to discard a card that is itself Unusable if the card can become usable through other cards that are available to the player. For example, if a player has a Universe: Teamwork card, but no Power card to use as a follow up (See Universe: Ally cards), the Teamwork card would be considered Unusable. If it could be Placed, then it would not need to be discarded. If it could not be Placed, it would need to be discarded. Also, if the Player had a Special card which read "Draw 1 Power card from the Power Pack" then they would be able to keep the Teamwork card in Hand since the ability to make it usable existed."

The sentence in italics seems to contradict BBH's response.  Is there another rule or meta-rule that overrides this rule?  If so, can you point me to it?

EDIT:
I realize there are some differences between a draw 3 and a "Draw 1 Power card from the Power Pack."  The main one is that the "The Draw 1" guarantees you get a power card whereas the Draw 3 does not because you could draw from the draw pile and the draw pile might have non-power card cards in it.   That being said:
(1) There is no guarantee that the "Draw 1 power card from the power pack" will give you a power card that allows you to play the teamwork (could need a I or S power card to play the teamwork but only have E power cards in it).  Wouldn't "The Draw 1" still count as a random draw?
(2) What if you have a draw 3 and you can only draw from the power pack (draw pile was exhausted in previous or current battles).  In this case, the draw 3 effectively acts like a "Draw 3 cards from the Power Pack."  Based on the above rule, would you then be able to keep currently unusable teamwork cards since you are guaranteed to draw power cards? 
(3) It could be that I have interpreted "Draw 1 card from the Power Pack" incorrectly.  Is it the case that the "Draw 1 card" special allows you to choose a card from the power pack (any one that you want)?  Since that is a non-random process, that would definitely not qualify as a random draw and allow you to keep the currently unusable teamwork.

EDIT 2:
I think I found a solution in meta-rule (153): Specials which can make other cards (Specials, Power cards, etc.) usable allow you to keep those unusable cards in hand during the discard phase. The Special to make them usable must be available (e.g., Placed, in Hand, available through a specific draw - not through a random draw).

So, it seems like case (3) from above is the correct way to interpret the "Draw 1 Power card from the Power Pack."

[breadmaster]

I don't think there ARE any cards that 'draw 1 from power pack'

the ones I can think of (booster gold/storm/falcon), all allow you to choose one.  it seems they poorly worded that ruling (shocker!)

[drdeath25]

"A player does not have to discard a card that is itself Unusable if the card can become usable through other cards that are available to the player. For example, if a player has a Universe: Teamwork card, but no Power card to use as a follow up (See Universe: Ally cards), the Teamwork card would be considered Unusable. If it could be Placed, then it would not need to be discarded. If it could not be Placed, it would need to be discarded. Also, if the Player had a Special card which read "Draw 1 Power card from the Power Pack" then they would be able to keep the Teamwork card in Hand since the ability to make it usable existed."

This is correct. If you have a card that is unusable with your current hand, but you have a card that can make it useable, you can keep it. So say you have a Fighting basic universe, and you have Storm's OE "Gathering Winds" special, which lets you get 3 cards with an energy icon from the powerpack. Then the fighting basic universe is unusable and you have to discard it. But if the basic universe was of the energy variety and you had the same storm special, you could therefore make that basic universe usable that battle and it is not discarded. Its pretty simple.

My thing is about the "Draw 3 cards" special you may have in your hand. BBH says you would have to discard the teamwork because your not guaranteed the powercard to make the universe useable. I'm not sure I agree on that, but it never came up for me during tournaments so I never got an official ruling on it. But in my opinion the potential to make it useable would allow you to keep it, but BBH may know of a rule I dont.

[AO user]

I would think the  storm special falls under the draw 3 mechanic because either COULD draw the appropriate card (storm could pull a multi power with fighting and energy icon). Does anyone no a relevant meta?

[MHC]

I would think the  storm special falls under the draw 3 mechanic because either COULD draw the appropriate card (storm could pull a multi power with fighting and energy icon). Does anyone no a relevant meta?

I also had the same thought.  In principle, you should know the top 3 cards in your power pack because every card is discarded face up.  Thus, as you said, if you know a multipower 4 is in the top three cards of your power pack, then the teamwork card is playable.